Ira and Louis discuss Liam Payne’s death and One Direction’s impact on music, Mikey Madison’s star turn in Anora, the original Sunset Boulevard film and expectations for the stage show, Cynthia Erivo’s response to Wicked memes, and a potential Joni Mitchell biopic. Tegan Quin of Tegan and Sara returns to Keep It to discuss her new documentary Fanatical and how she handled a years-long catfishing of herself and her fans.

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Ira Madison III And we are back with an all new episode of Keep It. I’m Ira Madison, the third.

 

Louis Virtel I’m Louis Virtel. And it’s as if we never said goodbye, quoth the musical Sunset Boulevard, which I am proud to announce I am seeing this weekend in New York City. I cannot wait. And I’ll tell you why I can’t wait one. Most people seem to fucking love Nicole Scherzinger as Norma Desmond, but to leave review in the New York Times was the one non rave and the mid questioning skeptical vibe of that review makes me want to see it more. I’m kind of confused, but most people seem to love Nicole.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I was with a friend yesterday for lunch, my friend Noah, and he was telling me that he was at the premiere and that it was fucking amazing and that it sort of does Ivan Van Hove, but better.

 

Louis Virtel I see. That’s the guy who does like spooky theatrical retellings of things we’re all familiar with. He is using.

 

Ira Madison III Cameras and screens and ruining West Side Story.

 

Louis Virtel And also he did. Speaking of the films of 1950s Sunset Boulevard, he’s the one who did the version of All About Eve that had Lily James in it and Gillian Anderson. And people were like, I’m not sure we need it.

 

Ira Madison III It was a version.

 

Louis Virtel And the music of PJ Harvey, whom I touted last week. Anyway, I rewatched the 1950s Sunset Boulevard this week.

 

Ira Madison III Classic.

 

Louis Virtel Which apparently, apparently Gloria Swanson in that movie playing this fading movie star who a screenwriter a down on his luck screenwriter kind of runs into. And they both try to rehabilitate each other. And then she gets crazier. And it’s this film noir experience. I’m sure you’ve seen it, but do you know what the scariest part of that movie is? It’s not when she becomes violent or highly delusional. The scariest part of that movie is when Norma Desmond, out of nowhere goes. I’ve written a screenplay and then just pulls it out.

 

Ira Madison III Like, what on earth.

 

Louis Virtel Are you writing? Who gave her a typewriter?

 

Ira Madison III You know, Norma Desmond would have hated podcasts. No, we didn’t need dialog. We had faces.

 

Louis Virtel Picture her sitting with a Victrola at work, and our voices are coming out of it. Absolutely not.

 

Ira Madison III That is a fantastic movie.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. You know what’s shocking about that movie is that it’s so watchable and intense and suspenseful. Even though most of the movie, most of the movie is him doing voiceover, like he’s telling you what’s happening and telling you this guy’s inner monologue. I’m talking about William Holden here, who had an amazing 1950s because he starred in that and he also starred in the movie that won Best Actress beating Gloria Swanson, born yesterday with Judy Holliday. So anyway, that’s how you do the year 1950. Thank you. William Holden.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, I it’s interesting you bring up the voiceover, too, because I think that obviously that was a film noir trope at the time. And there are certain movies where obviously it’s overdone and it feels like it shouldn’t work. And maybe that’s because these were maybe the originators or you sort of don’t mind. I’m thinking of Billy Wilder directed Sunset Boulevard. I’m also thinking of Double Indemnity as well.

 

Louis Virtel That’s the definitely the best film noir movie. Definitely.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, and the best one that handles voiceover.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Right.

 

Ira Madison III No, but it just works in these movies, you know? And it also feels like the voiceover feels like a character. It feels. I mean, to bring up a podcast, you know, it feels like you’re listening to something that is propulsive. It feels like a story is being told. It feels like you’ve got a beginning, middle and end. You know, there’s urgency to it. I feel like a lot of voiceover in movies since then is just people talking.

 

Louis Virtel Right. And also just like a way to make the story relatable in in too obvious way, Like, you know, like here’s your friend in the movie leading you in or whatever. And also a hit that’s a little bit of a gone girl situation where the person in the voiceover, it’s like, do we like this person? What’s going on here? And you know, because he’s deeply cynical that the point of view of the movie is extremely cynical. Anyway, also great opening. Jesus Christ. Yes, exactly. And you have no idea how you’re going to get there. It begins with a pool. Also, the other thing that’s awesome about the original movie, and I wonder how much of this is preserved in the stage show, which is, of course, written by Andrew Lloyd Webber. And it’s not the exact same thing as the movie. The references to older movie stars like it constantly. It’s like, you know, it’s a movie that takes place in the Hollywood system. So you’re talking to writers. We’re like, can we get a Tyrone Power type in this? You know, I love that people referencing the feel of being in the business. You know, it’s what Ryan Murphy’s Hollywood was going for. And I don’t know that I would put it on the same level as Sunset Boulevard, but.

 

Ira Madison III I actually appreciate that about films of that era to it’s it’s a thing that people reference all the time. This is not a new observation, but about like Shakespeare for instance. Right. It’s use when people try to not say like a 30 Rock or something for making contemporary pop culture jokes. It’s Shakespeare was going back to Sunset Boulevard. It was doing that, too. It’s just that we don’t recognize the references anymore.

 

Louis Virtel Right? You have to look a lot of it up like some of them don’t seem like contemporary references or whatever, but total pleasure. And also great for viewing, right? Right. In my intrigue pocket that I was talking about last week.

 

Ira Madison III I actually was going to ask like your favorite Billy Wilder film, but I think mine’s Double Indemnity. I think it’s just obvious.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I mean, lots of good and lots of good answers. Yeah. I love the apartment. I mean, I think I would say Sunset Boulevard because it’s got four awesome characters. I even love the screenwriter chick who has like a subplot that’s like the least interesting part of the movie. But her, like, Hollywood ambitions are very real, and she talks about how she grew up in Hollywood. I love the flourishes of that character. And she was like 20 years old at the time. Got an Oscar nomination or her name is Nancy Olsen. She lived until about last year. Like you could go to Sunset Boulevard screenings and an original cast member of that movie, an adult, would be at the screening.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, it’s fun because I think also he’s really good to bring up Double Indemnity movies at that time where people playing against type. Obviously you have Barbara Stanwyck playing a femme fatale, right? And Double Indemnity. And speaking of movies, going against type you know to continue are. Oscar season. Rolling along. I saw Gladiator to us.

 

Louis Virtel My God. I have to say, when these movies are unmasked to us well ahead of time, when we get these screenings and we get to see them like two, two months ahead, I almost it’s like opening your Christmas presents early. Like, I need to save some of these for the big moment because you want to be a part of the discussion when they occur. That said, this is like the biggest epic of the season. So what did you think?

 

Ira Madison III It’s the only epic.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I mean, like we do have Wicked and we do have Dune too, which occurred, you know.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, honestly, I mean, there’s a lot of talk about how men cry during the first one. Yeah, it’s a man movie that allows men to be in touch with their feelings. I cried during this movie, too.

 

Louis Virtel God. Wow. Would you say it’s about a different one?

 

Ira Madison III No, it’s very different. It’s. It’s a sequel, but it’s more. It’s. I would actually say it’s the Scream two to Gladiator scream.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. So that.

 

Ira Madison III Means if that makes sense, that means.

 

Louis Virtel It ups the stakes, but keeps the same suspense, you know, and love. And there’s a couple of hair cuts that make you want to scream.

 

Ira Madison III And Denzel Washington is very similar to Laurie Metcalf actually in this movie. His performance with the rings and the robes, the dress that he’s talked about already in his interviews. Actually, you know what I described. Denzel was as good as I was sitting next to writers Michael Kuby and Hunter Harris during a screening. And first of all, we cracked up at every single Denzel. I know the theater was sick of us, but they weren’t bad. They weren’t like, you know, like, this is so bad. Like, we’re laughing. They were like, perfect line readings. Like it is Denzel’s movie.

 

Louis Virtel I would say, When’s the last time you’ve ever reacted or we’ve ever reacted to a Denzel performance like that? I’m so psyched. It sounds like.

 

Ira Madison III Training Day.

 

Louis Virtel Sounds like a delicious performance, quoth Cate Blanchett, talking about Judi Dench in Notes on a Scandal.

 

Ira Madison III It’s maybe his most delicious performance since Training Day. And he is giving. I kid you not. Nichelle Nichols and Turner.

 

Louis Virtel Allow me to slow down because you just said that Mr. Nichols.

 

Ira Madison III If you told me his inspiration was the show because in the movie truck Turner, then I would believe.

 

Louis Virtel My God, I have, like, a splitting, happy migraine. Because you said that. That’s so shocking. How is that? How is Paul Mescal, who, as you know, I believe his energy is he’s one foot seven and he wears little shorts from Zara alone, but then an expensive blouse.

 

Ira Madison III But he’s so tall in person.

 

Louis Virtel He says, okay.

 

Ira Madison III I ran into him in the theater. He was there for a Talk Back, as well as Connie Nielsen. And Denzel was there as well. Yeah, I mean, he’s great. I mean, he’s bulky, he’s good. He gives, man. You know, it’s he really sort of transforms in a way that I wasn’t expecting that you would expect from normal people after a certain point. You know.

 

Louis Virtel Also, by the way, this is the in Gladiator two, there’s a scene where they put sharks into the ampitheater or whatever. And this is like loosely, loosely based on something that could have occurred at one point because they did flood the Roman amphitheater at some point that said putting sharks, I mean, it’s like Dr. Evil level. I mean, what’s happening here. Girl you know, there weren’t sharks in that. Come on. What book did you get from? Ridley?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I had a big fucking great time.

 

Louis Virtel My God. I’m so, so, so, so psyched. I mean, and speaking of Oscars, we’ll be talking this episode about a Nora, the new shining movie starring Mikey Madison. And I’ve got to tell you, the best actress race this year is very intriguing to me because nobody is really jumping to the fore in terms of has to win. I mean, Mikey Madison is such a new name. We know her from Scream five and we know her from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. But this performance, which I think is mesmerizing and fabulous, it would be so weird if someone won an Oscar for being that new. I mean, that’s we haven’t had one of those in a while, particularly in the best actress category.

 

Ira Madison III Speaking of Scream.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Mikey Madison, one of my favorite recent Ghostface Killers.

 

Louis Virtel She inhabited what a killer should be in that movie when she’s unmasked. And you learn who this person is? Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. Also, did you know I mean, you’re not a tick talker, but her moment at the end where she’s confessing to Gail that she killed Dewey, actually calls him a pussy is a trending reaction on TikTok by people acting out that scene. It’s so fucking.

 

Louis Virtel Funny. We have put a gale through it. Jesus Christ.

 

Ira Madison III Give me that bitch is coming back for another movie.

 

Louis Virtel No kidding.

 

Ira Madison III Her ad said, my God. What? What? What are they doing?

 

Louis Virtel They should be. They should come with, like, head bandages and, like, smoke. I mean, like, the most jaded people who ever lived. Nonetheless, I am very excited to see Kevin Courtney again in those movies. Okay, So we’ve got to. Nora, what else is happening this episode, IRA?

 

Ira Madison III Well, unfortunately. Liam Payne passed away. This was a.

 

Louis Virtel Mind boggling headline. Had to read it three times. I was in the middle of a meeting at work and had to announce it to 15 other writers, and we were in the middle of like an actual pitch or something at the moment. It was over. I was immediately going through the 1D archives after that. What a shocking and sad story.

 

Ira Madison III Announcing it to people. And then also the shock of we’ll talk about it, but the initial shock of just how it was presented to us via TMZ with photos of his dead body.

 

Louis Virtel Insane. I still haven’t seen them.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, they were partial, but it was it was horrifying. And so that news sort of like came out of really. I mean, obviously, like a death comes out of nowhere a lot of times. But it is weird to just be in the social media era where this man was there are photos of him like online or like Instagram stories of him in When Us are is truly like an hour or two hours at an event before he died.

 

Louis Virtel no. I mean he was on Snapchat like a half hour beforehand or something. It was wild. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So we’re going to talk about that and revisit One Direction as well. And we have a wonderful guest this week. We have Tegan Quinn of Tegan and Sara joining us this week. Now to and Sarah were actually early keep it guests.

 

Louis Virtel I was not here for that unfortunately yes I mean I was a I don’t know where I was on assignment what was I doing but.

 

Ira Madison III In Kiev.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Correct. They, Tegan is in a new documentary on Hulu called Fanatical about a wild story of privacy invasion that occurred regarding Tegan and Sara years ago before we became sophisticated about this sort of thing. And it’s a harrowing tale.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So we’re going to chat with Tegan and welcome her back to keep it in just a bit. But when we’re back, we’ll talk about One Direction.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III Last Wednesday, Former One Direction member Liam Payne died in Buenos Aires after falling from a hotel balcony. The singer was only 31 and since his death, his friends and fans have flooded the Internet with remembrances of his talent. Today, we’re going to take a look back at Liam’s legacy and at One Direction’s everlasting impact on pop culture.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, let’s just reiterate what a tragedy this was. We talked about how we both heard and then we were immediately flooded with images from TMZ that were showed parts of his body there. I mean, like it was it wasn’t graphic to the point where you see face or anything like that. But it was unbelievably shocking. So when you were confronted with this horrible news and then, too, you were confronted with how we get this kind of news, which was just insane. But I’m thinking about One Direction. I mean, like as we’ve been talking about, Billboard has done a list of like the 25 biggest pop stars of the 21st century, and One Direction was listed, I think somewhere in the 19 range or something. They were not just an undeniable phenomenon. Like you weirdly got to know all five of them in a way that I feel like you didn’t even really with something like NSync, like they all had distinct personalities and what they contributed to the band. Like, you know what Niall contributed, you know what Zayn contributed. We can compare all of their solo output. All five of them were discoveries on X Factor. They were put together into one supergroup, and then they became the phenomenon that they were. And it was they were also charming together. And then also it seemed to sour pretty immediately, too. It seemed like all five of them had an experience with the group that was immediately overwhelming as they had four consecutive Billboard albums that also all went to number one. I feel like as long as they’ve been famous and long as they’ve been adored, there’s also been this like checkered. They got too big, too fast. It’s always been my perception of One direction, though. If I had to pick a favorite song of theirs, it would be one that Liam co-wrote. And this is a low key karaoke banger. When you put this on, everybody sings that the best One Direction song is Night Changes.

 

Ira Madison III It’s a great song. That’s a great song. You know, I love no control.

 

Louis Virtel Interesting choice. Do you know what I was just confronted with? Okay, so did they have an early song called Little Things?

 

Ira Madison III Yes.

 

Louis Virtel I had never heard this song before. It has like 500 million views or whatever, and you watch it and I don’t think of One Direction as an old boy band. Obviously, they occurred like 14, 15 years ago. Watching that video, you feel like you were watching New Kids on the Block. You realize how young they were, How like like the hairs and the look like have changed and evolved extremely over the years. And obviously, they’re not like teenagers anymore. But wow, it’s just it’s mind blowing to be confronted with how young they were and how in control of being like singers and songwriters they were even then, even though they were thrust into the spotlight.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, even from the What Makes You Beautiful video to the Kiss You video, which is the year two different albums, they just this complete sort of like glow up and sort of image change. And we did really get to watch them grow up. But I’m glad you brought up Night Changes. I love that song. I love Story of My Life as well. That’s another sort of karaoke banger. Night Changes is a great song that Liam did co-write and I think I read about this at my substack last week. The fact that Liam was a songwriter and what was really interesting and that a lot of people didn’t know about a lot of their songs was that Liam and Louis, the majority of the songs in One Direction were co-written by both of them. You know, they were the chief songwriters in the group. Obviously sometimes, like Harry would write a few things and Zayn as well, and then the other one was there. But, you know, I think that really Liam contributed a lot to the songwriting of One Direction and sort of what the group sounded like really. And as they matured and as he matured and as their relationships actually changed. I think that once we got to midnight, memories, once we got to four Four is a fantastic album, by the way. I think just start to finish. It’s a great rock album. It sounds like a mature rock band and you get to see all of the growth that they’ve had as artists.

 

Louis Virtel He was also one half of what I believe is the only reality show judge and contestant relationship I can think of. He was with Cheryl Cole, famously of Girls Aloud. They have a child together?

 

Ira Madison III Yes. Now, she was a judge on X Factor when he first started on X Factor.

 

Louis Virtel Right?

 

Ira Madison III We have to talk about that. Moving on.

 

Louis Virtel Girls. Be quiet.

 

Ira Madison III We could also be quiet about the times you beat up about the bartender.

 

Louis Virtel Did that happen?

 

Ira Madison III Yes.

 

Louis Virtel I’ve always, like, connected to her because she sort of is like if Kate Beckinsale were a pop star, that is her energy to me.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, that’s her general vibe. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Gay men who don’t stand by Kate Beckinsale. Unacceptable. Love Kate Beckinsale. Moving on.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, I think I’ve told this story once before that I think Beyoncé had told Kate Beckinsale was that serendipity was one of her favorite movies.

 

Louis Virtel Could that could that be less shocking? That’s so rare. Love and friendship is the best Kate Beckinsale movie followed by the last Days of disco. Moving on.

 

Ira Madison III You know her sitting at home watching that fall movie with John Cusack and Kate Gosselin.

 

Louis Virtel Yep, yep, yep. In recent years, Liam Payne was with this model influencer. Maya Henry. They had a falling out that seemed very serious, like she had been he had been trying to reach out to her for years and years. She rejected it. It felt like there’s a darkness surrounding Liam Payne in his recent years. And like the toxicology report from the autopsy was downright harrowing. It was basically a list of everything you’d expect and a harrowing toxicology report. But the nature of his death like that, as we said before, we saw him on social media so recently before that, that it must have felt like some sort of manic moment or something. Like it’s it’s a very it’s once you start thinking about it, like a lot of theories flood your but it just a lot is possible and it’s all extremely tragic.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. What’s interesting about One Direction, I want to say is that I remember them starting out obviously with The X Factor and the What makes you Beautiful era and particular being. Maybe we were a little too old for them at that point, but they had a sort of gay fan base, but then they sort of grew up into adults. And what really happened is that I think maybe it was because of the sort of shifting ideas of pop music in general. You know, I think a lot of people started taking pop music more seriously. Music critic started to the Pitchfork sort of crew started taking pop music more seriously as well. I think that One Direction started being respected a bit more as pop art as the music got better for one. And I think that we started respecting them as a group more right around four and midnight Memories like the songs were great. The writing was good in sort of a way that it took a while for people to sort of retroactively like the songs of, say, Instinct or Backstreet Boys or Britney Spears, you know?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Well, also, I mean, like, this is a weird comparison, but I like it when people talk about the Beatles. If they had stayed the same kind of music they made in like 1964, like the Please please me, like I want to hold your hand. They they would have shriveled so much faster, like they needed to evolve in order to not just like keep their fan base, but expand it and like, gain respect ultimately, you know. And also, they basically lasted about the same amount of time as was like a 6 or 7 year period. That one Direction was extremely popular. And I will say, if I had to pick a greatest solo moment from any One Direction member, I think I have to go with this town by. I think that’s the best of the solo output. And by the way, I’m ignoring all of Harry’s house. I know we’re supposed to love Harry’s house Album of the Year winner Harry’s house, but this town is a banger. Single.

 

Ira Madison III Well, you know, we don’t really listen to Harry on this podcast, but I love Liam. Strip that down.

 

Louis Virtel Strip that down, which is definitely his best work. Liam also released one of the most derided albums of the past six, seven, eight years or so. Yeah, a shockingly bad album. Which I don’t know. I mean, like, I think about that moment a lot actually, because obviously there was this halcyon days period of One Direction where, you know, seemingly everything they touch turned to gold. And then you have an album of your own and it flops. I mean, like that. Does that fill you with like, ah, do you hate the fans for turning on you do hate critics for turning on you? Like, you know, it just went so awry in a way. I wonder how detached you can be from that kind of failure.

 

Ira Madison III Really, And remembering that era and that album was dragged. Yes, to hell and back.

 

Louis Virtel In a way that nobody and nobody expected. I mean, there are so many people that like, we’re sort of prepared to drag, like, here comes this person again with their middling efforts or whatever. But I think nobody expected that album to be like that. You know, to to no one expected him to be like the butt of a joke at that moment.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And it’s interesting that I feel like when Zayn first came out, his first album was pretty good. Yeah, I think it was well-received. And then if anything, I would say that Zayn’s music didn’t really become it wasn’t critically derided. I would say it sort of just. Filtered into the background. Yeah. You know, Zane would release something and you would sort of maybe find it on Spotify and like, new Music Friday or something, but it was less an event as it was for Mind of Mine was like a big event in 2016.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, Pillowtalk a number one hit like we expected. Zayn to be the breakout star for years and years and years. And now I’m, like, Googling. Remember Zayn?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And it’s, I don’t know, looking back at obviously, you know, a lot of the struggles that all of them had coming out of One Direction, Liam and Zayn were both people who sort of seemed to struggle with being in the group. They were the two people who sort of derided the group publicly and spoke ill of the group, or you sort of put their contributions to the group higher than everyone else’s. And I would say that Zayn is at least someone who seems to have gotten past that hump of a lot of the issues that he was dealing with post One Direction. But Liam still seemed to be stuck in a lot of them post One Direction.

 

Louis Virtel If you haven’t read remembrances of Liam Payne, one that I found really touching was Louis Tomlinson, who talked first of all, he referred to him as piano, which I guess is a nickname they had for him. So it’s just immediately endearing. And you you get a real sense of the relationship they had because of One Direction and in spite of one direction, like like how they forged a real bond, even though the a crucible of tension and expectations placed on that group would, I think, naturally split them all apart. It was cool to see that they still had some sort of communications about working together again.

 

Ira Madison III And it’s important to remember that this wasn’t a group that was friends who came together and were making music in their garage or something. You know, this is the very unique phenomenon. These people were put together by Simon Cowell. Right.

 

Louis Virtel It’s very much like, as you can see on my shirt, if you’re watching this on YouTube, Catie, which is still on Pop Star Academy, which you can watch on Netflix, Why is this not the most popular show on Netflix? Why it’s so.

 

Ira Madison III Please watch it.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Please watch this other release another song.

 

Louis Virtel Right. And like I can say the words like Daniel is my favorite today, and you’ll understand it. Please. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Well, you have to use K-Pop terminology, Lewis, and you have to say your biased.

 

Louis Virtel Daniel man, I’m deeply unfamiliar. I need a, like, urban dictionary, all of that.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, you’re biased as that’s who your favorite is.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. Got it. Got it. Cute. Cute. I’ll remember that. You’re like, who Weekly today telling me all about the terms? I don’t know.

 

Ira Madison III But yeah, you know I mean they were put together edits. We experienced some of that in our early pop music that we listen to. But I mean, obviously some of In-Sync and Backstreet Boys, a couple of those members were put in there by Lou Pearlman. But still, the core of those groups were people who had grown up together or were related and sort of had bonds that are still strong, you know, going into adulthood. One Direction, for all intents and purposes, like have no reason to still interact with one another once one direction is done, you know.

 

Louis Virtel Right. They were fans, but they still do. They were fancast, you know, like we watched them each audition and be like, that, that hairstyle belongs with that hairstyle. Let’s put them together. Like, it’s downright impersonal in a way.

 

Ira Madison III And it is just a weird way to make music, you know? And but it is sort of how we make music corporately now. And I think it’s just sort of beautiful that something came out of this fan casting moment from X Factor, a group that means a lot to so many people. I mean, you see all of the remembrances of Liam, all of the directioners writing about the time when they were writing One Direction fan fiction or, you know, going to concerts. And this was like, you know, you’re thinking about the Errors tour this past year, you know, like people were going to One Direction concerts, like they were going to the areas tour.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Anyway, Liam Payne was 31 years old. It’s just it’s is shockingly young. I mean, it’s just an unbelievably tragic story that it still hasn’t quite hit me. Even reading the One Direction statement about it still feels extremely strange. And at any rate, the music will live on because it is some of the most popular music of the 21st century.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I was actually kind of shocked this weekend to hear some of the One Direction songs that I was hearing played either in a bar or at a party by people who you sort of. Wouldn’t expect. Listen to One Direction. But as it turned out, friends of yours listen to One Direction. Or at least they were so popular that they people have 1 or 2 One Direction songs that they kind of love that maybe you never knew that they even listened to.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, well, so it’s like it’s filtered into the canon in a way. We’re divorced from the moment of it. Now we can just respect the fact that they did give us big pop musical hooks and stuff, you know?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And obviously we talk about we’re going to talk about this later with when Tegan Quin joins us. But there is just something so weird about losing Liam and then just the the urgency which with people need it demand it like a response from Harry and Niall and you know it’s like I don’t want to know what any of them think. I know what they think. You know, they lost someone who was important to them. I don’t need a statement from them on Instagram.

 

Louis Virtel Right now like they don’t owe anybody comforting. It’s very strange. You’re right. And when Keegan’s here, we’ll discuss what fans can reasonably expect from artists and also what they can’t expect, which is a wide array of shit.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. We will be right back where you can. When you can. And Sarah. If it wasn’t for this week’s gas pop music wouldn’t be what it is today. As one half of the iconically queer, artistically singular duo Tegan and Sara, her music has paved the way for other queer women to dominate the charts. But while many people have said they want it to be Tegan and Sara, one of them actually tried it. So here to talk about the new Hulu documentary Fanatical and her catfishing saga that inspired it. Please welcome back to Keep It, Tegan.

 

Tegan Quin Yay. I’m so glad to be back and without Sarah. What a joy.

 

Louis Virtel Liberation. Yes. Finally, your moment is here.

 

Tegan Quin Usually we have to, like, you know, share the questions and, like, keep our answers short. Man, what a joyful thing. Thank goodness for fake Tegan. That’s one positive I can say from someone pretending to be me and trying to destroy me and dozens of other people’s lives is now I get to do press alone.

 

Louis Virtel We had the Veronicas here not too long ago. And it’s interesting. I mean, you would obviously relate to this, but it’s so interesting watching them like like sort the question. Like they instinctively know that sometimes you have to wait for the other one to speak first and then there’s like a whole choreography to it that I’m sure is maddening.

 

Tegan Quin Yeah. You know what’s interesting is, I mean, people the two things I find kind of annoying is when someone to ask one of us a question. Well, ask a question generally. So not direct it to one of us and then one of us will answer it. And we’ve clearly covered it all. But then they’ll look at the other one waiting for the other one to respond. And we’re like, No, we’ve got this figured out, bitch. Like, don’t worry about it. Like, I can answer. You’re going to ask another question she’s going to answer. And then the other thing is that it’s not even like I don’t enjoy doing press so serious. Just I’ve heard her answer these questions millions of times. And mostly I’m just thinking this isn’t a productive use of my time because I’m just sitting here listening and I’ve already heard this.

 

Louis Virtel Figured would actually be also very valuable in this regard to just like answer the questions to let me move on with my life, you know what I’m.

 

Tegan Quin Saying? Exactly. Exactly.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. So starting talking about this movie. First of all, what a shocking saga. As we already said, it’s a catfishing journey that happened. Somebody pretending to be you, reaching out to fans, forming close relationships with many fans and having lots of your personal information. My question is, how did this turn into a movie? As in, were you did you present it as an idea to somebody else or. I like, how did this come into like, I can’t even believe there’s enough that happened that it would be cinematic, let alone this compelling?

 

Tegan Quin Well, I suppose that’s up for debate. But I a couple of years ago I told the story to a friend of mine and he was like, you know, sort of ensnared in me. Tell it like I just started to unravel the story. I hadn’t done that in a long time. You know, the act of years of fatigue in that we’re most dominant or 2011 to 2015. And after that, I sort of tried to compartmentalize it. And we talk it comes up all the time. But I hadn’t told the story in a really long time. So this friend of mine, let me tell this whole story. And and then he he suggested I write it down. So I wrote a story called Fake Tegan, and I pitched it to my agents as a podcast. I was sort of like very aspirational. I was like, We’ll do it a serial style podcast. We’ll tell the story that we know, and then we’ll sort of investigate in real time. And they thought it was a great idea. So I pitched it to this woman, Jenny Askew, I’m friends with who’s a writer and host on Sirius, and she immediately called me after she read the story and said, Let’s pitch this to Erin Lee Carr. And her and Erin had just worked on a movie called Britney versus Spears. And Erin Lee, Carr’s very famous documentary filmmaker has made about ten films. And so we pitched her a couple weeks later and she said, You guys, this is not a podcast, this is a movie. And we ended up joining forces with Story Syndicate, which is a big documentary production company, and went out and pitched it and Hulu bought it. And for the last year and a half we made a movie and I had no idea if it was going to be worthy of a movie. There were definitely times where I thought, okay, this isn’t going to work. But we were able to, you know, interview a dozen victims and obviously pull from archival and and tell this really scary story that happened to us all these years ago.

 

Ira Madison III It’s so interesting to watch this because obviously you are, you know, reopening old wounds. And what’s interesting, too, is the victims are as well. So I’d be. Tell us a bit about the process of approaching these people to be a part of the documentary and sort of had you had any contact with any of them in the time between, you know, the initial first scandal and then in, you know, out of the blue, you know, your messaging them and being like, be a part of this? Because I know there’s J.T., who was a musician, who was a casual friend of yours, who had also become one of the catfishing victims, a victim figure. That’s a big focal point about, you know, you two sitting down with one another.

 

Tegan Quin Yeah, No, it’s a great question. And honestly, back in the the sort of 2011 to 2015 period, so that’s when we first learned about fake deacon and we started to communicate with the you know, at the time, I think a couple of dozen people had contacted our management. We’d put a call out saying, you know, if you’ve been talking to someone pretending to be Deacon, can you reach out? I never personally spoke to any of the victims at that time. You know, obviously, my relationship to all of the victims is complicated because all of them, for the most part, were online, you know, on message boards or Tumblr, like looking for my personal information and then got into a friendship or relationship with me. And that’s, you know, hard as a public figure. You’re like, you need a line, you need a boundary. And so it was complicated when when this all first started, there was definitely a part of me that had less compassion and empathy and was just like, Why are these people trying to get my personal information? Why do fans feel entitled to like breach our privacy? Know? So my management mostly dealt with it. At the time. I was aware of everything that was going on and reading through everything and felt terrible for all these people. But I had never spoken to any of them. And I do think actually that was probably partly why I was interested in reinvestigating this. And telling the story was that I do have more compassion now and I wanted to understand why these people got into these relationships and how this happened. So before we even sold the documentary, we spoke to Julie, who’s the first victim that appears in the movie. And Julie had a multiyear, I think, three year friendship with fake Deacon, you know, exchanging thousands of emails and messages and was devastated when she came forward. You know, she’d been given really personal information, passport scans, photos, unreleased demos of ours and had become suspicious, had become kind of, you know, her instincts took over and she was like, this doesn’t seem right and had contacted our management. So she was our first call when we started to work on this project, and I was devastated for her. I still feel devastated. You know, she’s so amazing and so sweet and it’s awful. This happened to her and she was the first person to agree to come on and talk about what happened. And so that was sort of our process going forward was that, you know, there were some victims who’d had really long relationships and they would Aaron, who’s the director, and Allison Janney, who are our main producers, you know, they would reach out to me and say, Hey, we want to talk to you, Joanne. We want to talk to Julie. We want to talk to this person. Can we sort of say that you’d be up for speaking to them? And that was what landed us a lot of the victims. There were people who had very brief, you know, relationships with acting and who we didn’t need for the film. There were other people who were deeply traumatized who were not able to, like, revisit this in a way like, you know, and didn’t want to come public. And then, IRA, of course, you bring up someone I went for coffee with a couple of times in 2007 and had an old email of mine and had like reached out in like 2012 or 13 to be like, Hey, girl, let’s connect again. And then having a relationship with this person. And I was horrible. I mean, you know, when that all happened, when I found out about that, that added a whole layer to the fake Teagan story that I wasn’t even emotionally prepared for. You know, up to that point, it had just been Tegan and Sara fans, you know, that this had affected. But when JT came forward, it opened a whole new can of worms because I realized, my God, if someone’s in my old email. Who else were they talking to? And at that point, we investigated. I mean, we got Yahoo involved and we found out there was like a dozen of my friends who had been talking to this person unknowingly and giving them access to personal information and photos. The only one who ended up having a relationship was JT and, you know, ended up having a sexual relationship. And it was devastating for JT. I mean, it was mortifying and scary. And, you know, that part of the film in that part of the journey of reinvestigating this was really hard, obviously, because. JT Similar to Tara, who’s another victim in the film, their reaction to finding out that it wasn’t me was the opposite of Julie. They weren’t helpful at all. They were withholding, angry, you know, called me up pub. He accused me of terrible things, grooming underage fans. They were sharing naked photos, unreleased songs. I mean, they had a very different reaction to finding out about 50. And so it was so helpful for me to revisit that ten years later. And, you know, they had very different reactions now to like we had a good, you know, conversation, whereas with Tara we didn’t. But I’m hoping that it was helpful for all of the victims to talk about it again, that’s for sure.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, this fake dig and person is carrying on these relationships with fans who are trying to reach out to you to a certain degree. They must have been a bit convincing. Do you like reading this stuff back? Were you surprised at the sort of intuitive nature of this? Am reminded of that movie, that Melissa McCarthy movie, Can You Ever Forgive Me where she’s imitating these literary voices and then selling them out? Like you read it back and you’re like, I’m like, I both would believe it and wouldn’t believe it in retrospect, you know?

 

Tegan Quin Well, I mean, I know myself best. And so, no, I one of the things that really struck me in 2011 when we first started reading through, you know, dozens of these victims emails was that it didn’t sound like me. You know, I am a very formal like my friends make fun of me for in a very formal over email and text I use for punctuation like an indentation like, you know, like I, I didn’t look at the emails and say, this sounds like me, but how would they know that? Like how Tegan and Sara fans know what my emails were like? How would they know that I’m, you know, a proper English, you know, using full punctuation, like, why would they know that? So no, I didn’t feel that it that those that that the emails felt like me and that was such a consolation or such a relief at the time because I thought, okay this person’s not in my email. They’re not pretending to be me with actual like, like the stories they would tell were not based on my real life, you know, Like you’d be like, I’m cat sitting my friend from my friend Darin and I hate cats. Or like, there’s something in the movie where it says, like, you know, I got a I got a television finally. It’s like, I’ve always had a television, you know, like like details that didn’t make any sense. And that was a relief to us because we were like, okay, this person doesn’t actually seem to know much about my real life. So then we became obsessed with figuring out, okay, well, this is them. Like, they must be making these stories up because this is actual things that they are doing. So, you know, we would we fell down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out who fake Teagan was really early because it became kind of a game okay I’ve been cat sitting and they have a friend named Darren and they they spell recognized with an S, not a Z, like, you know. So is it possible they’re British? You know, we became, you know, basically Internet sleuths, but they did have a lot of things they shouldn’t have had access to, you know, unreleased songs, photos, passport scans, personal information about me, like a Brit, you know, about a breakup or about my mom’s sister being sick with cancer, stuff like that. And that scared us, you know, that’s when we started to realize, like, there were leaks and at that point determined they had broken into one of our managers. Emails had set on set up auto forwarding. So they were getting one sided conversations from our management and us. They had broken onto our managers. Idisk which for the kids listening is, you know, a version of the iCloud back in that time, or the cloud, basically. And so they, they did have access, but it was limited, but it was enough to sell this. And in conjunction with the fact that I was just very open, you know, at that time, you know, when this all started, you know, I was willing to stop and talk to people outside the venue and chat and ask them stories. And we would do VIP and record stores. And, you know, we had face time with fans a lot. And so I got to know people. And so they when we started to interview a lot of the superfans and a lot of the early victims, they were like, you know, we felt weird that you were on Tumblr making friends with fans. But there was this other part of us that was like, Well, Target’s really friendly. And I was like, my God, this is my fault. You know? I was too nice.

 

Ira Madison III You know, it’s interesting that this documentary came out when it did. You know, I think that we had an entire summer, obviously, of this conversation with Chapel Road, bringing this up with, you know, sort of the boundaries between fans and invasions of privacy and even just the music and the demos thing. You know, I think about artists that I love, like Charli execs who are wearing her sweater now, like she had completely abandoned the Project Exec’s World because it leaked online and she didn’t want to release it anymore because the demos had gotten out to fans. I remember 2022, I think like a lot of Del Rey’s like car was broken into and her computer was stolen, you know? So how do you feel, you know, as an artist, you know, one. Fans are constantly wanting access to not just your personal information, but your art before you’re ready to share it. And also, you know what? How would you offer advice to other artists like Chappell, especially like a queer artists like that who are experiencing many of these things that you experienced in an early era of the Internet to now? It’s, I guess, easier for her fans to even get information about her family and her whereabouts.

 

Tegan Quin Yeah, it has been a crazy few months. I’ve been joking that it’s like as if I know Chappell and Texture and was like, Is there any way that you could sort of have a meltdown about fandoms and toxicity online just in time for our movie to come out? I think it’s sad that it’s but you know, I mean, I’ll say a couple of things. Like the first is that, I mean, we’ve been dealing with this our whole career for sure. Like there’s definitely an intrusion and entitlement that a certain very small minority of your fan base always has. And every band feels that way, every public figure feels that way, and you just learn to deal with it. And I am really inspired by this new generation of artists, you know, Chappell is a great example, but Mitski obviously pulled back a couple of years ago and no longer runs her on social media and has changed the way that she promoted her latest project. You know, Hayley Williams during, you know, from Paramore during the pandemic did the same. This is something I think artists have always been going through. I mean, we toured with Katy Perry ten years ago and, you know, this is someone who has to spend probably 6 or 7 figures a year on security. No, no artist wants to do that. They’re not enjoying that. They’re not like, I love going to dinner and then coming out and 100 people are taking photos of me. It’s it’s embarrassing. It’s irritating. And we’re trained as artists not to tell you that. We’re trained not to say you’re just as bad as the buffer. Lets see to certain people like, you know, I’ve been at a restaurant where someone’s filming me eating. It’s not pleasant. You’re not like, I’m popular, this is cool. You’re like, That’s annoying. I’m eating like, you know, I’m a garbage troll. Leave me alone. Like, you know, and so. Finding a balance for each artist is unique and different. It’s your journey figuring out where you want it to be. Is telling us that her journey is not going to be populated with people like us. She is not going to accept that. And I think it’s amazing and inspiring. I think for Sarah and I, we sucked it up and took a lot more abuse and, you know, dealt with the irritation and resentment we sometimes felt by setting more boundaries. But ultimately, you know, we were trained not to say anything. And I don’t know that that’s right. I just know that that’s the generation we come from. I’d say my advice is that you should set the boundaries for your own career. You it’s your journey, you know, like popularity and fame is unnatural and it’s a cycle. I just actually recently listened to Katy Perry talk about this. There’s a time in your career where it’s really hot and it doesn’t mean you have to be stratospherically popular the way that chapel has or the way Katy experienced fame. There is a point, even in our own career, where it was too much and you just pull back and it’s a cycle and you come out the other side and you think, Well, if I made it through that and you know, in terms of technical, you know, advice, change your passwords, make it really difficult. Don’t put your name in your own email. You know, your management and your whole entire team and crew. Everybody should be regularly changing passwords on social media, on your email. I mean, we’ve worked with cybersecurity specialist multiple times in her career to help secure our devices. Don’t send music over the Internet. And just be prepared for it all to leak anyway, because I don’t understand. It’s like some sort of black magic or something. Be They get in anyway, you know, it’s bedbugs, but.

 

Ira Madison III Every album leaks little. Truly, I’m shocked when a pop star’s album does not leak at least a couple days before.

 

Tegan Quin Yeah, yeah. It’s really crazy. So it’s the world we live in. But it’s so important, though, to remember that the vast majority of human beings and the vast majority of fans aren’t like this, you know? And I also think we have to zoom out and just say, like, this is a cultural thing. Like, you know, Princess Diana died because the paparazzi were chasing her. But we’re the ones that clicked and bought those newspapers like Justin Bieber’s begging us all to leave him alone for years like we are monsters. We as a culture are monsters. We love famous people and we drive them crazy. And we drive other human beings to drive them crazy, to capitalize and monetize. And yeah, that’s like it’s dark, this dark. And that’s ultimately what fanatical our movie ended up feeling more like, you know, Erin Lee Caro, amazing director, understood. I think three quarters of the way through, we weren’t really talking about fatigue and or unmasking fake chicken. We were there to talk about this this whole conversation about when people love you too much.

 

Louis Virtel It should not be controversial to say that. Yeah, people treat celebrities like shit. We talk about this on keep it a Lot like like the idea that, like, celebrities have asked for a certain amount of attention to that and that means they should expect and want to feel invaded is just so wild. But I guess one of my last questions for you is like 10 or 11 years ago or so, it was like the New Now Next awards. And I remember you guys are performing and there was a red carpet that I was working and Kylie Minogue was asked who she was excited to see and she said, You guys. And I was just wondering in general, speaking of fans, that you would actually want to have who aren’t horrifying, have you had any fame, a fellow artists who have reached out and said that they’re fans of yours that you particularly cherish?

 

Tegan Quin Well, that I remember that moment so vividly. I mean, that was we danced on the we went out and danced afterwards, like when we were playing closer at the end of that awards show. And Kylie was out there dancing and it was like it was very exciting, you know, that era of of Tegan and Sara, like that pop era was, was really exciting. And I look back on it very fondly, even though we have been slowly like walking it back since because we didn’t really love Pop Era that much. I mean, I loved the music, but it was too hard, too much work. Didn’t didn’t enjoy that part of it. But yeah, so many amazing artists like, you know, I’ve obviously brought up Katy a couple of times. She was like an incredible fan, you know, very supportive and really helped us a lot during that era. You know, same with Taylor Swift. You know, since we put out Fanatical I mean, I love Moon. I’ve been a fan since day one. We’ve collaborated with them before. And they came to the movie premiere in L.A. and were really supportive. I know they’re going through a lot of fan, you know, growth issues right now. And I’ve been really felt, really touched by a lot of the artists that have reached out. I just was texting with Katy from Waxahachie, you know, who would watch the film. And, you know, there’s a lot of really amazing female artists who are incredibly supportive to us and who I look up to and really appreciate their support in this. But yeah, I mean, honestly, any musician that reaches out is like, I like your band. I’m like, thank God. And clearly for anyone who watches the movie, I’m hungry for Love. So, you know, like I, I love when our peers reach out and tell us that they appreciate us. It’s really meaningful to me. I love being in a band and I love getting to make music and I love that our music has influenced so many of these new young artists that are coming up, and I just really appreciate the still get to be at the party all these years later. You know, it’s it’s so genuine that I cannot believe Sarah and I did this. We were just back in Calgary and I’m like, God, we were such losers. We were such a little dirtbags, you know, like. Like and the fact that we were like, have pulled this off. It’s. Yeah, I just feel a lot of gratitude.

 

Ira Madison III It’s so weird looking back, even on that era like Louis bringing up, you know, back when I first moved to L.A. to, you know, the heartthrob era. It is, yeah. It feels so distant. But that was really just a big sort of cultural moment. And, you know, I think closer heartthrob and even I love you to death right after that. Just like really big moments that are so different from the so jealous era. Yeah, I think it’s great that you’ve been able to have so many different I just cultural moments that mean so much to different fans.

 

Tegan Quin And I mean it means a lot to us to I mean, I think I watch a lot of artists try to chase past successes and I understand the desire to do so. I’ve had so many conversations with amazing bands who feel that their audience just wouldn’t accept something different from them. And for Sarah and I, that was I think that’s the key to longevity. And it’s certainly been the key to our success and our longevity, which is that when we start the process of making something new, we demolish what we’ve done in the past. We, you know, truly pack it up, put it in a storage unit. It’s like I just I don’t want to try to recapture anything. For us, it’s always about trying to do something new and and not necessarily something new that we think people will love. It’s just something new for us to entertain us. So yeah, but I’m so grateful for all the different eras and that, you know, that heartthrob era was really exciting and it’s a thrill to talk to, you know, so many different artists who are coming up now and are popular now saying, you know, I mean, it makes me feel hella old. But, you know, like when was like, you know, like we were see, do you guys in high school when you put out Heartthrob and inspired us, you know, to start a band I’m like, God, my God or something. But but I’m thrilled, you know, like, I’m I’m, I’m truly thrilled to see, like, these artists driving. And I yeah, I feel a genuine excitement to see so many queer pop stars breaking out and to see so many female artists doing so well right now. It’s as a really inspiring time in music and it’s a joyful time for Sarah and I because it was a lonely career in the early days of Tegan and Sara. You know, it was really hard, which is, you know, to bring it back to fanatical is why I think we had such a connection with our audiences, because they were our peers. They were the they were our mentors. They were the people we looked forward to seeing. They were the ones who made us get on stage every night because before the social media, we had no way of knowing other bands, like there was no one for us. So these days we’re like weird weirdos. I see, you know, an artist across the festival and I’m just like, my God, we have to go over and introduce ourselves. Like, you know, for me, like, you know, making that community so important. So anyway, yeah, great time in music right now.

 

Louis Virtel But thank you so much for being here. And I don’t know how this news will fall on your ears, but you are a dynamite interviewee as a solo act. I don’t know what this means for John and Sarah, but I mean, I’m a little worried and thrilled for you, so. I don’t know.

 

Tegan Quin Yeah. Yeah. Look, Sarah had a kid, Sarah. A kid two years ago, so, you know, she’s got her hands full. So, you know, if anything, she probably be thrilled to know that I can get that. I’m carrying the weight for both of us sometimes because, you know, she’s got she’s got a busy schedule, so she doesn’t have as much time for these things. So, yeah, I’ll take it. And it’s lovely to see both of you again and to speak to you. Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

 

Ira Madison III Of course. Thank you. Award season just started, but this year, Stand standout might already be decided. Of course, we’re talking about a Nora, the Sean Baker film that has both critics and audiences raving and has possibly introduced us to our next big starlet, Mikey Madison. I’m in love with this Cinderella story. Okay. This is this this is a five star movie for me.

 

Louis Virtel I would say it is a three star movie for me because I find the middle portion a bit repetitive and a bit long. But otherwise, the performances this is a movie. Mikey Madison plays an exotic dancer with Russian heritage who meets this very rich Russian kid of indiscriminate age. I believe he claims to be 23, but that’s a whole part of the story. He is this goofy, utterly spoiled, utterly uninhibited kid, and he keeps paying her to come over. And eventually he pays her to marry him. And even though it’s a, you know, or an arranged marriage like that, they do have some real affection there. But then unfortunately, they’re hanging out one day and his parents come realizing that he’s married this exotic dancer and they want to force them apart. And they hire these hitmen type people. They aren’t hitmen, but they’re like scary repo man vibes to come and arrange this for them. And it’s about her resisting that after he runs off and they can’t find him. It’s just it’s a pretty woman story that turns into this kind of gangster caper. And it is very entertaining throughout. The final moment of the movie is particularly touching and well acted. But I have to say about this movie, I do prefer the Pretty Woman section to the gangster section. I thought the beginning of the movie. I like the basically just the setup for the real problem in the story is the best part of it. Not just because she is so charming and he is so fucking hilarious. I’m sorry. He should be nominated for an Oscar too, for supporting actor. Obviously, a lot of awards attention is being paid to Mikey Madison. Excuse me, Mark Edelstein, as Vanya in this movie, when the movie begins, I think he’s on equal footing with Mikey matters in terms of screen time. This would be a best actor nomination. The way the movie goes and the way you feel about that character, something shifts, but that’s not because the performance is bad. He is amazing in this movie, and he better get a best supporting actor nomination for this movie. Mark Edelstein, I hope you hear his name again, but it sort of reminds me of my friend Rachel Fields, who lives in Madison, Wisconsin, has a problem with romcoms, and she’s an obsessive rom com fan. She goes, Do we have to get to the problem? Can we just hang out? And you guys are like, liking each other. Like, that’s fun. You know, you sort of resent that they have to get involved with plot, get involved with problems.

 

Ira Madison III You know, I would say that I enjoyed all three movies, that this was there’s the pretty woman part in the beginning.

 

Louis Virtel According to the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They hang out. There’s a lot of charming and wining and dining, etc. It’s very jazzy.

 

Ira Madison III Pretty Woman Cinderella story. It’s coked out, it’s frenetic. It is spring breakers and it’s hustlers on steroids. It is so fucking fun. The dialog is great, the characters are great. It’s an amazing set up for a story. I love the caper, the mob shit in the center, mostly because I still think it’s so fucking funny. Still, you’ve gotten to know these characters and then you introduce these mob type goons who come in and set off her, but then also set off some of the other characters that you’ve been introduced to. I love a character actress. I’ve watched who’s in this, who plays one of the friends. You see her in the candy store. She see her on the trip to Vegas.

 

Louis Virtel She is very funny. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III She also has a part in English teacher. She’s so fucking funny and she loves Keep it. She loves both of us.

 

Louis Virtel Never mind. She’s the world’s greatest. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Shout out to Ivy. But what I love about the caper, too, was that. I at first was so worried that it was going to be uncut Gems vibes because Safdie Brothers movies stress me out, right? I’m sorry. Like. Like Uncut Gems. Does the Robert Pattison one High Life? Yup. I guess that stresses me the fuck out. I’m sorry. It just does. And I was so worried that this was going to stress me out too. But it never really does. It’s. It teeters on the edge of that, but it manages to be funny and not sort of skin crawling. So that’s great. And then I think what the movie becomes in the third act is so much fucking. But I mean, it’s it’s almost Dynasty esque in the third act of the film.

 

Louis Virtel Meaning what?

 

Ira Madison III I just think, you know, like I don’t want to spoil stuff, but, you know, like with the with the arrival of the parents and then, you know, like the core and then like the Vegas stuff, it’s very like wrapping up the story in a very, like, melodramatic, fun.

 

Louis Virtel Way. Yeah. So the middle portion of the caper, the things I have some quibbles with, I was like, So it’s the goons. And then her. She begins to assert herself trying to chase things she doesn’t have to annul or get divorced from this guy. She made the decision herself, and they’re like acting on behalf of this rich family. So there’s this big conflict. It’s a lot of yelling the word motherfucker at each other now. Okay, There’s a place for that in cinema. That said, it goes on for quite a while and it makes me feel like I’m watching a Rob Zombie movie. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen The Devil’s Rejects.

 

Ira Madison III Absolutely.

 

Louis Virtel They were. They say the F word, something like 750,000 times. I think it’s.

 

Ira Madison III Still a record.

 

Louis Virtel It felt like that for a little while.

 

Ira Madison III That’s true. You know what? I will say that as a writer, sometimes you stop yourself from writing. But in a movie so many times because you read it back and you say. One of my characters doing here. I wish they would say anything else, but it feels like that’s all that’s in her repertoire.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. No, I will say something that kind of impresses me about this movie is so a Nora is the star character, but she has never given lines that feel overly scripted or overly quippy or like she’s suddenly Dorothy Parker out of nowhere, like it does commit to the kind of person she actually would be. There is no contrived dialog. And in this movie, even though I do believe that the dialog gets repetitive, so I both respect what happens to the movie midway through and then also sort of wish it gave us something else.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Have you ever seen three from How the.

 

Louis Virtel No.

 

Ira Madison III To Devil’s Rejects?

 

Louis Virtel Imagine me watching a sequel to that fucking movie.

 

Ira Madison III Yes.

 

Louis Virtel More I said. My friend Lisa was just visiting over the weekend. This one who showed that to me? Bitch? Come on, Alice. You know that’s not my bag.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Well, you think about Rob Zombie doing the Halloween movies. I wonder if there’s a person who could do the reverse of that. Take a Rob Zombie movie like The Devil’s Rejects and make, like, the classier, like, Halloween version of that for you.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Thank you. Yes, I would love and lightly anesthetized less. I mean, talk about Safdie Brothers. That is one of the most fraught movies I’ve ever seen.

 

Ira Madison III Devil’s Rejects. Yeah. Anyway, Mikey Madison is great in this movie. Mark, I don’t mean the kid is great in the movie, but I love Yuri Borisov, who plays one of the goons, and I don’t want to spoil too much about his role, but when he first appears in the movie, I sort of like him as an interesting actor, and I was pleasantly surprised that they give him a lot more to do in the movie because he, I think, is also really great in the movie.

 

Louis Virtel Is that Igor? Yeah. Okay. He is great. I, I don’t know that I’m disappointed. I almost I kind of wish he didn’t play as crucial a role as he ends up playing in the movie. It’s like they gave a kind of comic relief character this other dimension. I question how much that worked, even though he was great in the role. But by the way, the main Goon Taurus or whatever. He was fucking good too. And his vibe is the dad from Clueless. Dan Hedaya one of the great 90s performances.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, great scene at the fucking christening.

 

Louis Virtel my God. He there’s. He gets the text that this kid is married or whatever and he’s like sent into action to go after him and he’s in the middle of a christening like holding the baby and just hands the baby off and leaves the church and says sorry one time as he leaves. So funny.

 

Ira Madison III So not having experience and nor how would you say this stacks up against the rest of Sean Baker’s films? And how were you starting to feel about Sean Baker as a filmmaker?

 

Louis Virtel Well, you know what I’ll say. You know what? Sean Baker is excellent at establishing a zany character and then letting them go off on a caper. And like it’s you’re clutching your face and there’s some wild nudity you didn’t expect or a confrontation you didn’t expect. Whatever. I think this is his most complete and satisfying movie in terms of a character arc. That said, I think the best performance in a Sean Baker movie is still former kid because the Simon Rex and Rudd rocket. I thought he was absolutely spectacular in that movie. See, I don’t mean to say she is worse than he is, but I thought he was. Should have been a shoo in for a best Actor nomination that year. Mikey Madison In this the attitude she gives I mean it’s sort of like if you gave the entire my Cousin Vinny, Marisa Tomei character like a real caper for her to go on and not just one witness down speech.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Whereas I am not worried about Mikey getting a nomination.

 

Louis Virtel As in you think she will?

 

Ira Madison III I think she absolutely.

 

Louis Virtel Definitely know she’s a contender to win. She’s just a brand new entity in the best actress vocabulary. And when she’s up against someone like Angelina Jolie in this Maria Callas movie we’re getting from Pablo Larrain and Nicole Kidman in Baby Girl, which we both have seen. And she is phenomenal in it. But I wonder if that movie is. It’s interesting comparing Mikey Madison, Nicole Kidman. Nicole Kidman is someone you want to have two Oscars. So I feel like that’s what puts her in the pole position right now. But that movie is also slightly conventional in terms of being in a fair movie. And this movie is not conventional. And I feel like the character of Nora and again, please always play the title character when you can, because that is Oscar gold. Anyway, comparing those two. It’s very interesting right now.

 

Ira Madison III I also am maybe anticipating a nomination for Sean Baker, finally.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I guess he is under the. And also the only acting nominations so far for a Sean Baker movie, I believe is Willem Dafoe in the Florida Project. And he was great in that movie also. But I think that might be my favorite of his movies.

 

Ira Madison III The Florida Project is great. I mean, Tangerine is just fun. Yeah. But in general, what I love about this film, too, is I think Alissa Wilkinson mentions this in her review of it, but that there’s moments when they’re walking on the boardwalk in a Nora and you could see sort of like the orange sunset behind them. And it’s so gorgeous. Just the staging of it. And I would say that one thing that Sean Baker does beautifully is filming someone walking like on a mission in his tangerine is all Walk.

 

Louis Virtel Tangerine especially Yeah, the end of Florida project when they go to Disney. Yeah, right.

 

Ira Madison III Someone on a mission and a Sean Baker film is always going to be maybe the most mesmerizing part of the movie.

 

Louis Virtel This is not one of his movies, but it’s sort of like in Sideways when Paul Giamatti leaves that house and that naked guy comes after him. That energy, to me is a Sean Baker movie of like, movement and walking and craziness and what the fuck is going on?

 

Ira Madison III Whenever I think of Sideways, I always think of the 30 Rock joke now.

 

Louis Virtel Which was.

 

Ira Madison III Liz Lemon saying, Remember I asked that black guy if he had seen Sideways?

 

Louis Virtel She’s a mess. Never. Not good. Terrible. It’s never not good.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, I love when people are always discussing 30 Rock online, but I feel like it’s should be do information to people. But people are always discovering that Liz Lemon is supposed to be bad at her job.

 

Louis Virtel Right? Or like a kind of a bumble fuck. And also, people have really homed in on the fact that the show she writes is so bad.

 

Ira Madison III It is bad. Yes. Is bad.

 

Louis Virtel Right. But also, it’s like that’s true to life because it’s like somebody would cynical and smart like her would be writing a show that’s like meant to be like dog food for the masses. Like, it does make sense, you know?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I think it was brought up, especially in the context of Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, if you can recall. Mr. Sorkin.

 

Louis Virtel Mr. Sorkin has been typing again. There you go. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. About how bad show was. They they really tried to make the comedy on that show brilliant.

 

Louis Virtel And let me tell you something. The ratings and my eyes don’t lie.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So a Nora, a five star to me. Thumbs up. Go and see a definite.

 

Louis Virtel Thumbs up between 3 and 3 and a half stars for me. I really enjoyed the movie.

 

Ira Madison III Also, Mikey Madison. Like I said, one of my favorite ghost faces in the Scream franchise. I think that what people think that Emma Roberts does and I love Emma Roberts in Scream four, obviously, but Mikey Madison just gives you so much in that kitchen scene. It’s fantastic. And it almost makes me wish for, okay, you’re not a big sore person, but sure, I’m not sore. But the song movies, what they do is they jump out of chronology. And so sometimes, like some of the twists in some of the early ones were, this is taking place in the past or something. But sometimes they they jump back and forth in time, right? So that Tobin Bell can still be alive. Yeah. And I would love there’s just so much going on in the Scream universe and we have so many great killers who are dead. Let’s just go back. Give us give us a movie that takes place between Scream four and five.

 

Louis Virtel But also again. And that reminds me of my favorite thing about Ghostface. No matter who is in the costume, Ghostface is six foot three and very cute clothes, and that includes Mikey Madison.

 

Ira Madison III You can never figure out who that bitch is.

 

Louis Virtel No, no. It defies space, and time makes it. But where is, by the way, let’s say scream actually happen and scream. I’m Nev or whatever. And so the person in the costume is somebody I know. I would know who it is based on how they move in the costume like that. This is like something that never occurs to the people in Scream like, they’re moving like my friend, or they’re jolting or they’re athletic in a particular way. Anyway, these are things that would come to mind if you were actually being stalked by a killer in this costume.

 

Ira Madison III Also this way too much hesitation with ripping the mask off immediately when the killer is knocked out for a.

 

Louis Virtel Second, right? No, please take it off. This, please. Our problems would be solved. Please. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III All right. When we’re back. Keep it there. And we are back with our favorite segment of the episode. It’s. Keep it, Lewis.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III What’s yours?

 

Louis Virtel My first keep it goes to battleground states that are stressing me the fuck out right now. But I would like everybody to do is to think of three friends they know in a battleground state and text those people and first of all, say hi or just skip hi. Who cares? And make sure they go and vote. Because as you may have understood, it’s going to come down to those states this election. You can go to Vote Save America dot com slash vote to get actual language you can use to share with these people that will compel them to vote. So you don’t even have to do the creative writing yourself. You can hand that on. You can outsource that to Crooked Media and all the wonderful people who work there. My actual Keep It this week. This weekend, Joni Mitchell performed at the Hollywood Bowl with her puppeteer Brandi Carlile.

 

Ira Madison III And I saw a lot of Instagram. People were like, I’ve got to see Joni, right?

 

Louis Virtel And she did two shows. She was apparently amazing. Also at the show, Elton John was in the background basically running back up or whatever. And also Meryl Streep. Meryl Streep, as you may have heard, is rumored to be playing Joni Mitchell in a biopic written by Cameron Crowe, who had has become friends with Joni Mitchell over the years. He did a famous interview with her in the 70s, and he had a wonderful review of Blue when it came out at the time. That’s 1971. But in the years since, he’s written a version of a biopic that takes place later in life, I’m just going to say keep it to that. I just don’t know that I could watch Meryl Streep do late stage Joni Mitchell. I will say I want Meryl Streep to get Oscar number four. And I’m also going to say I would like Meryl to return to the silver screen. She has a better movie sense. Don’t look up. What? Meryl, you cannot leave us with that movie. Unacceptable. Unacceptable. And by the way, only murders in the building can’t be what you spend all your time doing. I’m sorry. Like, let’s get it together. Let’s get back to the silver screen where you belong. Cate Blanchett on television. Now we’ve lost our morals. We’ve lost our morals.

 

Ira Madison III But first of all, that building desert, run the lease for it. Because how many how many actors have they trapped in that no exit of a building? Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel No, it’s horrifying.

 

Ira Madison III Everyone’s on that.

 

Louis Virtel Show, right? And no. To end to save her own life, presumably. She’s now with Martin Short. Guys, I was out of that first. I was not gonna do it. Second, I was on to it first. They’re holding hands, going out to restaurants and Venice and stuff. Anyway, Joni Mitchell’s life is fascinating. I just feel like I would rather see the biopic of the young Joni, which is allegedly part of the story that Cameron Crowe has written. But also, you know, I distrust him a little bit. His last movie was Aloha. He trapped us in Elizabethtown for a little while, so you never know what you’re going to get with him. It’s been a long time since Almost Famous. You know what I mean?

 

Ira Madison III Obviously, Meryl could play the Blue Erin Joni now.

 

Louis Virtel Anyway, I wonder who that would be now. Yeah, because Joni Mitchell at that time would have been in her late 20s. So yeah. Who would the person be? Who is Riley Keough? I have no idea. Remember, for a time we were supposed to get a Taylor Swift performance as Joni Mitchell in a biopic, and then Joni Mitchell herself said, All you’ve done is found a girl with high cheekbones. Wow. In your face, bitch.

 

Ira Madison III Honestly, I think that Zoe Kravitz could play the Black era. Carrie Bradshaw.

 

Louis Virtel Ira has a condition where every time Joni Mitchell comes up, he has to bring up Joni Mitchell in blackface on the cover of Damn Much Like The Star.

 

Ira Madison III Her worst album. I only bring it up because unfortunately, the pictures kind of look fly.

 

Louis Virtel No, she she picked a character. I’ll say that.

 

Ira Madison III She was jiving. Yeah. I want to know who else was at that party. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel The clothes were great, too.

 

Ira Madison III Same thing. Because I would love. I would love a movie set at the roast where Ted Danson is in blackface.

 

Louis Virtel With Wimpy Goldberg, One of the great relationships of all time. No, no disrespect to Miss Steenburgen, but yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Like what? Ryan Murphy excavate that those kind of salacious stories.

 

Louis Virtel It really the pictures are just so shot because it’s the 90s. I want to be clear. It’s like, yeah, in modern times anyway IRA what is your keep it this week.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So by the way. Before I move on to that, because I brought up the Mark Wahlberg thing last week about the Calvin Klein. Yeah. And you just said the 90s. I had forgotten. This is also in the Mark Wahlberg ad. I had forgotten how in the 90s it was a common thing for everyone to just always say it’s the 90s.

 

Louis Virtel yeah, I remember on Clarissa did they did that. The Ferguson would say that like it’s the 90s and I was like that has no meaning whatsoever right you’re just in a decade go ahead.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. All right. My keep it this week. Last week. Cynthia Erivo.

 

Louis Virtel God, this is so much. All right. Go ahead.

 

Ira Madison III Cynthia Erivo. Was a little upset with some fan edits of the Wicked poster. Now here’s what happens. The wicked poster, which has said the arrival on it, wearing a witch’s hat and fully showing her face, and one of Ariana Grande days sort of whispering to her with a crown on is the official movie poster. Correct. Now, for years, the Broadway poster has not shown either Glinda or Elphaba faces. It’s just sort of had the hat tip down. And then it’s also just had a white hat over Glinda whispering to Alphabet’s ear. That’s been the iconic image of Wicked since 2003.

 

Louis Virtel And they did that because different people play those characters. So you don’t want to see their faces. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III So what happened is someone made a fan edit of the poster to look like the iconic wicked poster. Cynthia Erivo was not a fan. No. And she posted about it saying this is the wildest, most offensive thing I have seen, which is crazy.

 

Louis Virtel The number one thing.

 

Ira Madison III Which is crazy because Cynthia Erivo read the script to Harriet. Equal to that awful air of us fighting equal to people posing. The question is your pussy green, which is.

 

Louis Virtel A reference to a me. And we’ll get to that in a second.

 

Ira Madison III None of this is funny. None of it is cute. It degrades me. It degrades us. The original poster is an illustration. I am a real life human being who chose to look right down the barrel of the camera. Sorry. Look, I’m sorry that I. Blasphemy. But this is such a response that you would get from a theater actor. Yes, I am a real life human being who chose to look right down the barrel of the camera to you, the viewer, because without words, we communicate with our eyes.

 

Louis Virtel It’s what I mean. Like, okay, now I’ll say this. If someone manipulated my image, I might have, like, an allergic reaction to that. Whatever. Like, it’s a wonderful thing to see, etc. looking. It’s not like she’s pretending like she made a provocative choice, having a face on a poster facing forward. I mean, it’s just it’s not true. And I’m sure it wasn’t her decision. Like what? Like, of course somebody art directed this, etc. now. So if you haven’t seen this meme, Glinda is leaning into Elphaba who of course, has green makeup and she says the caption is, Is your pussy green? Now I understand that that’s a bit profane, a bit vile. Somebody who isn’t associated with that joke might not want to be associated with it. I understand where Cynthia Erivo is coming from on that front, but at the same time, the fact that she is leaning into whisper this, the joke is she’s embarrassed. It’s such an immature, profane question, and that’s why the verbiage is what it is. So I’m just saying, like the joke is on the profanity.

 

Ira Madison III Also, the joke predates this situation. The meme itself comes from the original Wicked poster, which has been around for years. So one at one point in New York City scrawled graffiti onto the poster in a subway station or something and wrote Is your pussy grin as if Glinda was whispering it to Elphaba. And this has been a meme on the Internet for about a decade. Longer even.

 

Louis Virtel All right. I will say, though, it is kind of nice watching a theater person, you know, find a keyboard and express whatever rancor, etc., just because, you know, in this era of like, chaperon, I like seeing people respond just with some bitterness. Like, it’s like not like you. It’s not like you owe us, like, a pleasant face and a smile all the time. So whatever. Like we.

 

Ira Madison III Pissed.

 

Louis Virtel Go off, etc., you know, it’s just it’s one of those things that puts you in her, in her head and it’s like, that’s what you think of this. And it’s it’s surprising. It was just a surprising reaction.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I’m not discounting her reaction be upset, go off. But it was a surprising reaction and I do think the. Get out. The part that turns it into camp is the. I chose to look down the barrel of the camera to you, the viewer, because without words, we communicate with our eyes. I mean, that is giving Karlie Kloss look and camp right in the eye.

 

Louis Virtel Remember what she did that?

 

Ira Madison III Yes.

 

Louis Virtel And then from then on, no one knew what camp meant. I believe she was the beginning of the end of the word camp.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, even to dinner with the wizard.

 

Louis Virtel It’s a reference to the Project Runway episode, even to dinner with the Kushners. Well, that that was good.

 

Ira Madison III I will say, though, that the person who created the created the Photoshop pointed out that it was not I. They actually Photoshop the image themselves. So she was wrong about it being I. But I will say that they reposted it and then said a lot of people have been taking credit for this and I know that she’s upset, but I’m reposting it so that I can get credit for this image which reads, Well, I guess you don’t care about her being upset. Yeah, right.

 

Louis Virtel Allow me to have more of a moment with us. Thank you.

 

Ira Madison III Also, I mean, it’s not that good. No.

 

Louis Virtel I wasn’t marveling at it. I was like, someone get her a job at a firm.

 

Ira Madison III If honestly, if Cynthia Erivo had come out and said it looks ugly, that would have made more sense because it does look ugly because the Photoshop, which hides her eyes, it doesn’t then alter Ariana Grundy’s image at all to look like the original poster, right?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. So it’s half assed in a way.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. It’s not a fast I will say the. Other funny part of this story is that at the fourth annual Academy Museum gala in L.A. on Saturday, Arianna Grundy was asked about this on the red carpet. Of course she was. Yes. And she gave a very Glenda response. I think it’s very complicated because I find I so conflicting and troublesome sometimes, but I think it’s just kind of such a massive adjustment period. This is something that is so much bigger than us and the fans are going to have fun and make their edits and ask if things can go too far. Sometimes, she says, I think so. And I have so much respect for my sister Cynthia and I love her so much. It’s just a big adjustment period. It’s so much stimulation about something that’s so much bigger than us. Go ahead, girl. She didn’t say anything, but she said everything.

 

Louis Virtel What’s bigger?

 

Ira Madison III What’s more small? What is bigger than. It’s bigger than our body. Yeah. John Mayer.

 

Louis Virtel All right. Yeah. It was like approaching saying something, and then I came away with less than what I walked in with.

 

Ira Madison III The statement was, my sister’s doing a little bit too much, but I love her. And you’re not about to catch me up on this carpet, right? Yes, That was the statement.

 

Louis Virtel By the way. Again, please just say you’re not going to catch me up on this carpet. Go ahead and say it to somebody’s face. Shutting down reporters I think, is very in vogue right now.

 

Ira Madison III That’s what I mean when I say I miss R&B. Ariana. I miss Ariana’s black era, speaking of black periods and pop stars, because there was a period in time when Ariana would say on a red carpet to a reporter, You’re not about to catch me up on this carpet.

 

Louis Virtel One.

 

Ira Madison III And then walk away.

 

Louis Virtel Right. One of my favorite moments ever is when Kurt Loder of MTV Fame confronted Jewel about her poetry book and the usage of a word. And it she used the word casualty to mean one thing, doesn’t really mean that thing. And she goes, You’re real asshole for saying that. Next question.

 

Ira Madison III Bang! Yeah. Yeah. A ratchet asking me about the use of a word of my poetry book on a red carpet.

 

Louis Virtel Kurt Loder expected Alaskan lady decorum from Joel, and he got run over by the van. She was raised in the van.

 

Ira Madison III She was still sleeping in. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Amazing voice Drool is underrated in terms of the canon of vocalists.

 

Ira Madison III I love Joel. I went into Julia songs.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, I’ll sing intuition right now.

 

Ira Madison III It’s it is wild that that is maybe my biggest draw pop culture moment intuition and the sick razor commercial and also something that means absolutely nothing to anyone. Not our age.

 

Louis Virtel No. Right. You had to have been there. It’s like the Liz Phair Pop album. It’s like, yeah, all that, the garbage pop album, etc..

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for listening to our show this week. You know, as we stared the podcast Mike down the barrel to you. Down the barrel to you, the listener.

 

Louis Virtel Which you couldn’t even see because you’re only hearing this.

 

Ira Madison III So yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Defying space and time over here. And thank you to Tegan Quin for being here. What an awesome interviewee.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And if you have not seen it yet, go and watch Fanatical. It is on Hulu.

 

Louis Virtel See you next week.

 

Ira Madison III Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok.

 

Louis Virtel You can also subscribe to keep it on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Ira Madison III Keep It is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are Chris Lord and Kennedy Hill. Our executive producers are Ira Madison, the third, Louis Virtel and Kendra James.

 

Louis Virtel Our digital team is Megan Patsel, Claudia Shang and Rachel Gaieski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton. Thank you to Matt DeGroot, David Toles, Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.

 

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