Elite college students struggle with literacy, U.S. Supreme Court kicks off a new term, Mississippi voter suppression, and Israel marks one year since Oct. 7 Hamas attack. Myles interviews Herb Murrell of the Stylistics about their October 11th return to Carnegie Hall.

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Ta-Nehisi Coates Defends Palestinian Voices After CBS Correspondent Labels Him An ‘Extremist’
The Supreme Court’s new term starts this week. Here’s what to know and the cases to watch.

 

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TRANSCRIPT

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode it’s me, Myles, De’Ara, and Don. Kaya’s not with us this week but she’s always a part of the pod and we’re talking about the under-reported news with regard to race, justice, [?]. Then Myles interviews Herb Murrell, the founding member of the legendary group The Stylistics. My father raised us on The Stylistics. It’s a great episode. You’ll love it. Here we go. And don’t forget to follow us on Instagram at @PodSavethePeople. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Family. Welcome to another episode of Pod Save the People. I’m De’Ara Balenger. You can find me on Instagram at @dearabalenger. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m Myles E. Johnson, you can find me on Instagram at @pharaohrapture. 

 

Don Calloway: I’m Don Calloway, IG at @DCalloway, Twitter at @DCSTLagain, A-G-A-I-N. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Well, before we jump in, I just want to acknowledge that we’re actually recording on October 7th and I can’t believe it’s been a year of tremendous loss and pain and suffering that is, that continues. Um. So just, you know, reflecting and holding space for Palestinian people, the Israeli people. Um this is also sort of a weird calendar moment for me because I put my dad to rest on October 6th. That was the day before October 7th. Um. So, you know, thinking about how so many humans are losing the people that they love in a way um that they’re being ripped from them and that, you know, they’re losing them in ways that they did not expect. I’m very empathetic and compassionate, too, given the timing in my own life. So I just wanted to acknowledge that I wanted us as as you know a as a collective that holds space and love um to do that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It’s pretty wild to think that it’s only been a year in some ways it feels like this has been a very long conversation, a long year. Um. Talking about it and witnessing, just like you said, De’Ara, that the incredible and historic in many ways loss of life that has happened as a result of everything that happened on October 7th. I know that we’re going to talk more about it with um with Myle’s news. And we all have friends who come from both communities um and we can acknowledge that the loss of life does not need to continue to happen. So here we go on this week’s Pod Save the People. 

 

Don Calloway: Uh. It’s just all fucked up. It should stop. Like I and I, you know, perhaps we should approach this as a more intellectual. I don’t mean the lack of intellectualism to to to mean a lack of sincerity, but I think that humans, particularly thoughtful Americans who are supposed to be among the intellectual leaders of the world, acknowledge that it needs to stop. And it’s not anti-Semitic to say that it’s not anti-Semitic, to say that, you know, it’s time for a reasonable cease fire or a reasonable Israeli administration. Um. You know, to to disagree with Benjamin Netanyahu’s treatment of Palestinians is not to be anti-Semitic, um but to also acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, is not is not, is not anti-Palestinian or anti-woke. Um. So I really just wish that there was some mechanism for global leaders to pursue a sincere and lasting peace here um because it’s been enough. It’s been a year. And, you know, from here, outside of reasonable intervention, it only gets worse. We see attacks in Lebanon last week to root out Hezbollah. Um. And, you know, we’ve known that this is something that could potentially mushroom to an entire region. There’s no reason to believe that this would be contained within the very narrow and tenuous geographic confines of Israel and Gaza. Um. And now we’re seeing the mushrooming. So, you know, I think there are people who are so much smarter than me and potentially even some of you all on this. I just think it’s exhausting and and and it’s time for the world to look for a lasting solution here. Um. And it’s just, you know, just so sympathetic towards all of the people um affected and and continually affected, um you know, by the loss of loved ones and really just the destruction of generations of of of safety over there on both sides. But it’s gosh, it’s just time for like the the well-meaning global community to put a stop to it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. Echo the sentiments specifically of DeRay where I can’t believe it’s been a year. It’s wild. I remember just everything about that day. And it just feels like every I could just remember every one of the 364 days that happened in between that moment. It is that time feels like it’s both slowed down and sped up. Um. And yeah, I think that the best thing that anybody can do, whether it’s on macro or micro levels, when something happens that is tragic, that is violent, that is dark, is somehow figure out a way to alchemize those that darkness into something that’s light. And I think that although it is painful, we are given opportunities as Americans, as just human beings on this earth to do the right thing, you know, and to and to alchemize this dark moment into something that creates a light that that can never be turned off. The put to put a little bit more poetic. So let’s let’s reframe let’s let’s back out. I am a Ta-Nehisi Coates supporter like I really love him even when I don’t agree with him. I just think that he’s really thoughtful And the type of public intellectualism that he does, I think is kind of like a lost art, specifically when it comes to Black folks. So I do just really, really, really love him. So I don’t know if you all saw but the exchange that Ta-Nehisi Coates and Tony D had on CBS Mornings was wild. Uh. Tony introed it after uh after kind of what felt like a normal CBS morning moment. And this like your regular kind of morning show banter, Tony kind of went for Ta-Nehisi Coates’ throat and was like, this reads like extremist literature and um political propaganda and I and and it’s you’re going to have I’m going to be hard pressed not to just sound like a cheerleader because that’s what I was because I think Mr. Coates handled that beautifully. I think that not only was he, I think he was racist. I think that was a racist assault that happened that in a way that would never happen to anybody else, no matter what their opinions were. And I think that not only was he able to navigate that publicly, he was also able to create pedagogy from that moment and really break down a a thing that has been often overcomplicated and and and and misconstrued. And he was able to make it really simple. So he really used that moment as an interest to educate a lot of people on more on on morning talk in America and everybody gets who gets CBS mornings. I am extremely disappointed in Gayle King and the extremely handsome man who was very quiet next to her who uh I have not watched CBS Mornings since Charlie Rose left. I don’t know [?] [laughing]. 

 

Don Calloway: Nate Burleson. I do know him. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. Got it. Got it. He was very handsome, very nice, seems to be very demure, very mindful. Wish he was a little bit more talking when when when I when our brother was getting attacked, I was so confused at the silence, um and I couldn’t tell or make out what were they surprised? Was this orchestrated because it seems weird to have two Black people who are saying nothing while one person is able to just attempt to annihilate Mr. Coates on morning talk. But again, I thought we just couldn’t not talk about this news, obviously, just to put some so other people can understand what how like how we got to this news. Um. I didn’t plan it. This is what the news cycle was this week. Was this week. Um. And I just felt like it was irresponsible to not talk about it because we are a Black political podcast. But the insensitivity of doing it on October 7th is something that we all, including myself, thought about. But I think that we still have to have this discussion and still have our reactions because I felt personal about it. I felt like I was, you know, back at job number two and having certain conversations with the manager, I felt it felt very um it the micro aggressive microaggressions were very aggressive. The high holiday comment, all these different parts of that interview felt very just um it just felt deeply racist in a way that I had not seen in a really long time. So I wanted to know all you you all’s reactions. Do you think this helps shift the needle, how do you I don’t know if you got to see what the Internet was is doing in the digital space and how viral um the clip went and how a lot of people who I, I can tell you because I follow them, they were not talking about this, what was going on in the Middle East until now, um but it kind of it landed in a certain area of um lets just say young Black culture [laughh] in a way that I didn’t see other conversations do. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I just want to read the actual quote he said, Tony said, “I have to say when I read the book, I imagined if I took your name out of it, took away the awards, the acclaim, took the cover off the book, publishing house goes away, the content of that section would not be out of place in the backpack of an extremist. So then I found myself wondering, why does Ta-Nehisi Coates, who I’ve known for a long time, read his work, read his work for a long time, very talented, smart guy, leave out so much?  Why leave out that Israel is surrounded by countries that want to eliminate it? Why leave out that Israel deals with terror groups that want to eliminate it? Why not detail anything of the first and second intifada, the cafe bombings, the bus bombings, the little kids blown to bits? Is it because you just don’t believe that Israel on any condition, has a right to exist?” And then Ta-Nehisi in pure Ta-Nehisi  genius goes he says something else but he says, I would say the perspective that you outlined, there is no shortage of that perspective in the American media. I saw Ta-Nehisi at the Apollo, it was the first sort of public thing he did after that series of interviews because he was on The Daily Show later and he did some he was on Chris Hayes after that, too, and Ta-Nehisi was interesting. He was like A, I don’t like fighting. So he’s like, I have not watched that interview since. He was like, I didn’t know it was going to be a thing until I’m getting texts from my friends being like, that was crazy. He was sort of like it happened. It was a thing. And then I went to the next thing, but I all of us, I could hear his throat get dry, like I could hear his body respond to just how wild that was. And what he said about at the Apollo, he said a couple things I thought was interesting. He was like um he was like one it is he was like, you know, we talk a lot about dehumanizing people, but the other way that you dehumanize them is that you just remove them from all mainstream media. So he’s like, you look up and there are no Palestinian anchors. There are no Palestinian writers. There are no Palestinian reporters in Israel like he’s like the the removal of Palestinians is something that has been a long project of the American media, not simply just the dehumanizing moment that’s happening now. And he’s like, what the net effect of it, and he was really sort of pushing the media. He was like, the net effect is that people now look at Palestine like a video game. So it becomes sort of a video game that people are getting killed because they’re not people anymore, because you haven’t seen anybody you haven’t and then the moderator who’s on MSNBC, [?], I think is his name. I don’t know him. He was good. He was a very good moderator. Um. He only had one like off moment, but he was good general. But he said to Ta-Nehisi, he was like um you know, you were only there for ten days and people sort of criticize that you did not see enough. And he says that is also a really American way to talk to Black people that like you didn’t see enough violence, you didn’t–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You don’t know the whole story of the terror, that he was like, I saw people not being able to walk on certain sides of the street or have to show that he’s like, I saw it with my eyes. How much of it do you have to see to know that it’s wrong? And he was like ten days was like, you know, and he was sort of making these allegories as a child of Jim Crow, how could I stand by and say this was okay? And I was like, Ta-Nehisi you did that. He also in the book, he also and at the Apollo, he talked about why he went back to Africa and why he also intervened in uh his book being banned in another state. But just wanted to add that. But Ta-Nehisi did that. And apparently he’s even he got his writing leveled up, which is really an honor because his writing was already it. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: What I was so impacted by with that back and forth is just the lack of listening on Tony’s side. And I am a CBS watcher. It is my morning news. I love Gayle and I was shocked that they just sat there and let that happen. Right. And so [sigh] one where my head is at is this weekend I was in Pennsylvania, canvasing for Kamala Harris, knocking on doors, talking to people. And we did persuasion canvasing. So we were talking to Republicans, undecideds, libertarians. And the joy I get from talking to people outside of my bubble, the joy I get in actually practicing an exercise of democracy that is so humanizing and so vulnerable. You knocking on a stranger’s door and you talking about what you care about and asking them what they care about. As a culture, we don’t do that. We’re on these devices, we’re sharing, we’re commenting. We’re not talking to one another. I was hanging out this weekend as well with some friends that had kids. All the kids were sitting together, huddled together on phones. They weren’t talking to each other. They were on their phones. We’ve got a big, big, big problem because we think that discourse happens on the social media and I get the social media. It has been helpful and la da da for pro  yeah yeah yeah. Get off your phone. Stop commenting. Go get engaged. Do something. Because what ends up happening when you stay on these phones and you stay in your pathology, in your brain, within your community, that’s talking to another talking to one another. You are Tony. That’s who you are. You’re not listening. You’re not empathetic. You’re sounding entitled. You’re sounding privileged. Oh, you’re still invited to the high holidays. Are you invited to the cookout? 

 

Don Calloway: Y’all, I think we need to stop inviting folks to the cookout. The cookout, we do. The cookout needs to be a safe space for us. You know, there can be other integrated spaces. You know, the non Wakandans who we deem cool, but um that’s for us. When they didn’t celebrate Frankie Beverly properly, y’all don’t know them anyway. So why are why are you here? Right? Um. On Tony D, I just, you know, I want to think about it from a media perspective. All of us are somewhat public facing media folks. And so I think that Gayle and good brother Nate Burleson were in a horrific position because when Ta-Nehisi leaves, Tony D is still their white boy colleague. That they have to live with and exist with every day. Right. And so I don’t know what they should have done. I thought about this for days now, thinking about what I would have done. My first inclination was to be frustrated at them for not defending Ta-Nehisi. But the first part is that they were in a terrible position because they got to live with this dude for as long as their contracts should determine. But and that’s a real tough professional dilemma that I think every Black person has probably faced. Right. But I think the other interesting piece here is the incredible arrogance of Tony D to come at the God emcee. Like, why why would you do that? You know what I mean, like what did you how did you think this was going to end for you? I’m not talking to Ta-Nehisi about nothing short of North Saint Louis Historical Public High League Baseball, because that’s all I can beat him in. And until I can get him in that specific corner, I’m not debating Ta-Nehisi Coates about anything. It’s just um I found it fascinating. Um. I found it remarkably arrogant on his part. But I think Ta-Nehisi almost to to Gayle and Nate’s exclusion. He handled it brilliantly and he handled it so–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Don Calloway: –well that I don’t even know that there was anything that they could have added um to to augment his his summary dispatching of the young man. But I just find it even the most well-intentioned of those kind of guys are just so extraordinarily arrogant to think that they would have had something to say, substantive and intelligent in light of that. But Ta-Nehisi, I mean, it just the brilliance, unlike me right now, the brilliance was in the brevity and the simplicity, which was, I am here to express another perspective. And I know you don’t like that in your soul. I know it makes you feel all angried up. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Don Calloway: But I’m not here to express the perspective you’re saying. And there’s also some brilliance in saying, I’m not saying you wrong, you know. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Right. 

 

Don Calloway: But I am saying I’m here to represent these people. And he did so, so admirably. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Just to what you were saying, DeRay, earlier that the term that was going into my head um was media annihilation, which was coined in 1976 by George Gerbner, um and you can um that’s the term for when you literally take out people from the from media. And their absence creates a type of mythology and a type of violence towards them more than like their representations. Um. And and just one last thing about Gayle and that because I can’t let them get get off because there was something so there was something so familiar and and not familiar around that because since we got here and I don’t want to be like melodramatic around this and I feel like anytime I connect something to chattel slavery, it feels like that. But how many times [laughter] have we been put in a, it does! It does but every how many times historically, since chattel slavery have Black people been put in the position to observe somebody else’s lashing and have to be quiet about it? And I just thought, if you can’t find the bravery when the violence is verbal, when the violence is political, where you have these big checks, if you can’t find the bravery as CBS, when are we going to be brave enough to disrupt like a white supremacist moment? You know, and it takes that bravery and say, you know what, maybe this is my last CBS check. But you not going to do this in front of me. It takes that in order to progress in my in my artistic radical opinion. [laughing]

 

De’Ara Balenger: And I will shake to that, Myles, because I rem– because I’m a CB, I’m a more I watch this morning show. On Juneteenth this summer,  um Gayle and what’s the what’s the handsome man’s name? What’s his name? 

 

Don Calloway: Nate Burleson. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Nate, Nate. 

 

Don Calloway: Formerly of the NFL. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Handsome man. That’s what I call him. Um. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Oh that’s that [?]. He was in the NFL?

 

De’Ara Balenger: And I watch every I watch all the time, every morning. And Gayle was like, well, Nate and I are here working on Juneteenth, but Tony’s not. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Wow. [laugh]. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: And she made it was I will always remember it. I’m going to find it and send it to y’all because it was hilarious. So the other thing that this might be to both of y’alls points is that they were like, ah here it is. Go again. Here he go again. So I think if we think what happened, like once they left that, you know what I you know, you know Gayle and they were looking at each other like, come on. So it’s just–

 

DeRay Mckesson: And Gayle, Gayle tried with that, [?] you got 20 seconds Ta-Nehisi. It just was not enough. What was odd about Tony is that he had a lot of time to what he was not given sound bite, he had a whole [strained sound] you know, he was like comfortable with it. And that was I think what surprised me to, is to say that if the book did not have your name on it, it would have been in the book bag of an extremist is I mean, that’s a big statement– 

 

De’Ara Balenger: But this is–

 

DeRay Mckesson: –to say [?] and a–

 

De’Ara Balenger: But this has happened–

 

DeRay Mckesson: –like an acclaimed author. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: –to me. This has happened to me with a dear, dear Jewish friend of mine where it was, I’m going to corner you with the fear of you being anti-Semitic, that I’m actually going to win my argument and get you to my side because I am gaslighting you into think, into saying that you’re anti-Semitic. I mean, we had a this was a whole thing. And he apologized because I was like, this pathology is effed up that y’all are doing. And it’s actually like people can have an opinion that is based in humanity and thoughtfulness and kindness and compassion and not be anti-Semitic. So stop trying. Stop doing that to us, well you especially the Black ones of us. [?]

 

Don Calloway: Well, that’s what that’s why it’s been, you know, in the year since October 7th has been so difficult because anything that suggests Palestinian humanity can be spun and viewed as anti-Semitic. And that’s a very dangerous territory, particularly for Black folks who, let’s be clear, we come from Black educated folks come from a 100 year tradition of advocating for a free and liberated, liberated Palestine. We did not make this up. Malcolm X was for Palestine. Fannie Lou Hamer, happy birthday yesterday was for Palestine. W.E.B. Dubois was for a free and liberated Palestine. And so to see that suddenly be conflated with anti-Semitism is extraordinarily challenging to any thoughtful Black people who recognize that we are part of a global Pan-African diaspora and we do not exist in isolation within the confines of these 50 states. I just want to say to good brother Nate, Nate also presents a fascinating character study in um in new media because Nate was an NFL player. He came from the NFL’s morning show, rec– properly recognized as talent who deserves to hold the stage that he currently holds. But Nate is sitting there like, hey, I just got in this. I’m not ready for this. And so I think it’s actually admirable that he took a step back. Should he have had some opinions? Does he have some opinions, perhaps yes? But I don’t think Nate was in any position, right? Nate’s a football player. Nate is a culture guy. Nate is giving you hard news. Nate ain’t ready for that. I mean that, you’re talking about samurai level discussions on global politics with very visceral racial feelings. Look, I’m looking at Nate. Nate wasn’t ready for that. And I love Nate. Nate wasn’t ready for that. And I and I applaud Nate for falling back, knowing he wasn’t ready, because the worst thing he could have did is try to chime in on either side and been clearly unprepared. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: That reconnects what I often say on the podcast, too, is even though Nate is very kind, very fine, very important. [?] so let’s just say that. But why is it why does it seem like when it comes to political moments we’re overrepresented by sports players and and entertainers and then it also, and if we do know that Nate, this is this is not where Nate is, he’s a culture person, which is fine. I’m a culture person. Why did you put a culture person in a political position. And now it seems like you were playing chess with your two Black people in order to say something that that espouses Zionist uh belief with with with no pushback. And this seems like a chess move. So I’d still push on the how we’re being how they were being used and um and you know, it doesn’t take political brilliance to be like, all right now, Tony. [laugh] Can we give can we give can we give this man, you don’t it don’t take that much political brains it just takes some bravery. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Or to set Ta-Nehisi up to like to, you know, the moderator can set Ta-Nehisi up so that he can set the record right. But somebody has to intervene because if you tell me that if you took my name off the thing, you would think this was a terrorist. I mean, you have boxed me into a har– that’s a hard moment. 

 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You know what I mean? I mean, Ta-Nehisi managed it well, but somebody could have helped him out of it. Granted, Ta-Nehisi’s gifts were bigger than the silence of the other two people. But whew [?].

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It happens. Yeah.

 

Don Calloway: I know we gotta move on. But just imagine, Tony D like stretching in the room, or like telling his wife, y’all I’m a get his ass [laugh] like imagine like [laughter] the arrogance of like–

 

De’Ara Balenger: 100%. 

 

Don Calloway: Preparing. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: 100%.

 

Don Calloway: And thinking you’re going to do it and thought he killed it, thought he killed it. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Thought he killed it. 

 

Don Calloway: Right, and just ah well go ahead and sit down somewhere. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: And and officially I’m no longer watching CBS Morning News. So that’s a wrap. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

De’Ara Balenger: Turning to the other things that happened last week. The vice presidential debate happened last week. You know, there are mixed reviews. I think we’re, you know, sort of supposed to say that Tim Walz won the debate. I think that you know, I think also I think because obviously the debate between um Kamala and Trump was so dynamic and everyone watched and we were enthralled. I think we expected that same level of entertainment with this debate. I also just think we expected J.D. Vance to be a you know. I think we expected him to be as idiotic as he has been on the campaign trail. And I think he you know probably went in strategically being like, let me course correct and sound like a “normal,” quote unquote, um empathetic person um if possible. So, I mean, did it hurt or harm? I don’t know. Did it did it convert did it you know was it persuasive for people that were undecided on either side? I’m not sure. I don’t I don’t I haven’t looked at those numbers. Um. I think for me last week now seems like two years ago and we are 30 less than 30 days until Election Day, which is wild um but interested to hear what y’all what you all have to think because maybe that would help to color my perspective on it. 

 

Don Calloway: You know, I don’t claim to have any particular expertise in the science of debates, but I do think that largely this entire debate season, but particularly the vice presidential, um was a study in expectations, particularly low expectations. And J.D. Vance has been so bad and so clunky and so awkward since being announced as the vice presidential nominee that basically anything he did outside of pulling a James Stockdale. I’m old enough to remember Admiral James Stockdale turning on his hearing aid in the middle of the debate. Um. Anything would have been a dramatic improvement. Uh. And ergo, we are inclined to think that he succeeded because he was not bad. However, to hearken back to 2008, lipstick on a male pig is still lipstick on a pig. Uh. And so what we found was a relatively articulate and frankly, an articulate Republican nominee and frankly, cordial exchanges between the two that I do think those represented something more of what Americans want to see, the less contentious stuff. But the policy positions were still extraordinarily bad. And frankly, the fact checking wasn’t there because it would have been a consistent stop of the action of the debate. As a matter of fact, one time when the moderator, I forget her name, indicated that um that J.D. Vance, uh by the way, his Haitian citizens that he represents in Springfield, Ohio, were there legally. He said nothing to affirm their humanity. But he said, I thought we weren’t going to fact check. So it just indicates that he probably lied the whole time, just lied articulately. But lipstick on a pig is still a dressed up pig. And J.D. Vance and the policies he and Trump represent are piggish policies. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I will say, uh you know, a couple thoughts. One is it has been interesting to see the critiques that Kamala has gotten about not participating in mainstream media interviews and da da da. She just went on the Call Her Daddy podcast, um which is I didn’t realize was the most listened to podcast for young women in the United States. Huge following. I did not listen to it and I’ve never really seen their clips on Twitter, but somebody’s listening to it and that is a that’s a big deal. And I thought Kamala did really well. And I thought the response that Kamala got to it was also great. She also went on Matt Barnes’s podcast, which I can never remember the name of that podcast but she’s been making the rounds, you know, before I talk about the VP debate. I’m going to give you a shout out Myles. And Myles, you were the first person to make me appreciate the sort of political and I say that in terms of like power, uh conversation, the political significance of Wendy Williams. And, you know, Wendy is really interesting to me because so many people uh sort of ridicule the way that she did her show like the, the gossip the celebrity da da da da da. Like and she did it in a way that was more mainstream, obviously, than the Perez Hilton’s. But people definitely had like a response to it, a negative response. And then you look up and you’re like, all the podcasters are trying to be Wendy Williams, but with less skill. You know, Wendy was at least funny and did her homework and was right about a lot of things. I think about all the men who joked her who are just knock off and shoddy versions of Wendy Williams. You know I think about all the people who are in this moment and I’m like y’all. Y’all owe Wendy, Wendy should sue all y’all for stealing from her. But what I’ll say about the VP debate and somebody on our team actually said this, she was like, J.D. Vance did really well. But the hard part is that he’s still so unlikable. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Like, you just you look at him and you’re like something is slimy about this guy. You know, it’s interesting, too, because people do say that, like, policy doesn’t matter, da da da, and I don’t think that’s true. But what I do think is true is that I think we have to continue to be better storytellers about the world we’re trying to build, which is you know complicated. And I have sympathy for Kamala and the campaign, because what happens when you are trying to fight against the idea that after birth abortion is a real thing, like you don’t even you spend so much time trying to like, dig out of the crazy position that they have normalized, that it’s hard to even talk about abortion because you’re trying to convince people that after birth abortion is not a thing. It’s not a thing. You know, like–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That is actually a tough position to be in. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So what scares me the most is not what’s going to happen during Election Day or what’s going to happen in um on election in 30 something days that’s not what scares me the most. That’s like, fine. I think that that debate was inconsequential. What I did recognize in J.D. Vance was somebody who was able to have discipline and restraint that Trump simply can’t have. So then what that makes me have concern about it is in four years, somebody is able to really, part of what has worked for the left is the absurdity in both policy and presentation of Trump. And what I saw at the debate was somebody who had the ability to show restraint, discipline, perform um uh being cordial which Americans love, where I I’m you know, I was raised in rural, suburban South. So I like I like a a [?] in my face person personally. Um. So I don’t like the shake my hands and we just agree. We’re pretty much alike like even him there’s ways that they even um showed uh similarities in and I’m like, well, you’re well, Tim Walz, you’re showing that you have similarities with a white supremacist. And it’s easier to say that with Trump because Trump is saying wild things in front of you. But now, without without me going going too much off on like musings at the base of it, I’m actually a little bit more concerned about the figures that we’ll find in four and eight years. Who adopt these extremist policies that Trump has presented but now know how to wrap it up in more respectability so more people can get on with it. And I think that might be something to look at. That is what I saw but I think as far as next month goes, I think uh Vice President Harris, still got it in the bag. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Continuing my kick around, getting out and doing something everybody. My news is from the 19th, who we’ve covered and we love. Um. But it’s about the Mississippi Black Women’s Roundtable. It’s led by Cassandra Welchlin, hope I’m saying that right, Cassandra, where they are re reimagining voter turnout with the power of sister vote boot camps. And it’s aimed at mobilizing Black women across the state. So these boot camps foster deep community ties, acknowledging the pivotal role Black women play as both caretakers of their families and catalysts for civic engagement. They emphasize the struggle to vote in Mississippi. It’s a state that has incredibly restrictive voting policies, including no early vote, no online registration. Mississippi. Um. The boot camp, the boot camp’s aim not just to increase voter turnout, but also build long term community leadership pipelines, encouraging more Black women to run for office and to take civil roles. So they’re partnering with NAACP and other civic groups in Mississippi. Um. And these boot camps also provide very smartly logistical support like childcare and meals, to ensure that boot camps are accessible for all. And the focus is also creating joyful and intentional space for Black women to connect using you know sort of different things like music, different creative opportunities, historical lessons to inspire activism and cultural connectivity. So I just wanted to bring this to the pod because I feel like it is my dream and my aspiration. That over time, states like Mississippi and Louisiana become blue. I’m saying it. I’m saying it here on the podcast. Mark my words and the way that we can do that, hello Democratic Party. Hello, can you hear me? Are you listening? Is we engage our people, we talk to them about what their needs are. We make their needs central to the Democratic platform. We make sure that we are including them all year round on our progress and what is happening and also how we can work in partnership with them. Right. These are communities that have been overlooked by their own state legislatures and state governors, but also by everybody, quite frankly. So I just see Mississippi and Louisiana as places where there’s so much opportunity for our people. And I also just feel like from my conversations with folks that are really sort of figuring out modalities for Black liberation. It’s actually going back to the south. It’s going back to get land. It’s going back to the Midwest. It is finding places where we can actually be spiritually free, where we can put our feet in the grass. Where we know how to grow our own food, where we can be inde– independent. So I don’t know. This is all swirling in me all the time just in terms of like where my resources are spent, in terms of being in support of candidates. Yes, we need to support down ballot candidates in battleground states. Yes, we need to make sure that more Democrats are in the Senate. But we also need to make sure that we are like Fannie Lou Hamer starting in the South, empowering our people in the South in not just asking them to vote, but giving them a reason to vote. Now I’ll get off my soapbox. [banter] Comments, questions?

 

DeRay Mckesson: De’Ara. When I think about this, um I’m just going to say there are there’s research. I’ve been interested in like, what does the research say about voter engagement? And interestingly, it looks like there are no studies that say that mass emails get people to vote. So [?] there’s that. But but there is um–

 

De’Ara Balenger: But don’t stop them white consultants from making jillions of dollars. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Because I’m like, oh my gosh. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Zillions. And if you ask the white boys that work for Barack Obama why he won. They’re convinced it’s from their digital game. Convinced.

 

DeRay Mckesson: But there is a ton of research that says that personalized messages and methods work, highlighting a door to door canvasing as one of the most robust and then phone calls. And there is some research on um on social networks and interpersonal influence. But it goes back to this idea that like authentic communication sort of in a host of forms is actually the biggest way to get people to vote. And I say that because we always say as organizers that people have relationships with people. That makes sense. If you show up at my door, it’s like a real thing. If you call me and talk to me and not like not a stock message sort of way, but like you talk to me as a person, that sort of matters. And as you know, so much of this is like telling people, where is your voter? Like, where is the they don’t know where they vote at. You know? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: This weekend a woman said to me, she’s like, I’m so glad you’re coming here. She’s like, I’m actually going to be out of the country. So how do I vote? It’s it is logistical questions, answering for people, you know what I mean? When, early votes October 22nd, Pennsylvania. But you got to keep knocking on the door and telling that and giving them a piece of paper that that’s it. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And you know, the Republicans probably know this better than we do, which is why they criminalize everything. You can’t give people in line water. You can’t do you know, you probably seen, Chance the rapper did one that was really big but souls to the poll where everybody meets up at the church like a thousand people and they walk to the poll together and just vote like why they criminalize those? Why do they make voter registration really hard? Why do you do why do you make it you know, there are some states where groups have to register to register people to vote. You got to go through hoops to even do voter registration. I have a friend who just did a voter registration thing in Dallas, the police sent 30 people in the name of security to her event. You know, like, why are they doing this? Because they know that if people actually understood how to vote, we will we would, if won’t even be a conversation in these elections. 

 

Don Calloway: I have a deep affinity for the South, as you all know. And I think that a lot of what you’re saying De’Ara, is summarized in Charles Blow’s latest book, it’s probably two years old now called The Devil You Know: The Case for Black Repatriation to the American South. And you can look at places like St Louis or Cleveland or Pittsburgh, where I grew up, and we don’t own nothing. We in jail, we under educated, living on top of each other. And this notion of the northern paradise um really, in reality looks like a rust belt ghetto for the African-American. That is what we have gotten out of this American deal. And there is a very clear case for repatriation to the American South. And I think that if that movement takes hold over the next 20 years, you will absolutely see the political machination flow from that. There are arguments to be made now that the South is not red, but it is unorganized people who would very likely vote Democrat. Now, it is important to note that that disorganization is not by accident. There have been intentional suppressing forces from paper on the law through violence and uh lynchings that have taken place not in the lifetimes of our grandparents or our parents, but in our lifetime that have forced actual physical punishment upon people who have attempted to organize the South and that lives in people’s genes in a very real way. If you or your daddy was friends with Medgar Evers, look, let me just go work this job rather than go try to organize all my people, because you can be killed for that. And the best thing for me and my family is for me to be around. Right. And so there are very real deep and intentional psychological reasons around why the Black South is unorganized or around why those who would be more inclined to vote Democratic or liberal is un are unorganized. But I also think when it comes back to these deep red versus, you know, spaces where Democrats have the ability to compete. It’s important to remember that these places were blue in our lifetime. In 2010, the the Mississippi House and Senate were blue. In 2012, Alabama had a Democratic governor. And so we have to look at the intentional corrupting of the infrastructure of democracy by one party in this country. As most noted in the 2013’s decision of Shelby County versus Holder, which removed Section five’s preclearance of the Voting Rights Act. But let’s be clear. While we are excited to run candidates, they are playing with the infrastructure and piping of democracy in such a way to make it unfair for people who would otherwise organize and have a very clear majority in much of the South. And so I think you’re absolutely right. We have to consider repatriation to the south. We have to consider political efforts to continue to organize the south. But those efforts have to go so much deeper than enthusiasm around candidates or elections. We are talking about an entire infrastructural irrigation system that undergirds democracy or, frankly, the lack thereof in the American South. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think I essentially agree with all of you. I wanted to uh bring this press release from the US Department of Justice um into this context from uh of Mississippi, because I think sometimes we we miss it. So the headline is six Former Mississippi law enforcement officers sentenced for torturing and abusing two Black men. Um. I’m going to skip down and just kind of read a little bit of what happened. Um. These defendants kicked in the door of a home. These are six white officers. These defendants kicked in the door of a home where two Black men were residing, handcuffed and arrested them without probable cause, called them racial slurs and punched, kicked, tased, and assaulted them. After one of the defendants fired his gun in the mouth of one of the victims, breaking his jaw, the defendants gathered outside to come up with a cover story as the victim lay bleeding on the floor. Officers who violate constitutional rights will be held accountable. That’s the um what they had to say. So I wanted to bring that in because to Don’s point, the violence, the intimidation that’s still happening in the south is still real. That reads, if I told you that came from 1932, it would be like, okay, yeah. But that is those people just uh uh got sentenced in 2024, in March. So I think that what has to be a part of it in the part of our real conversation is the danger of political activity in the South. It’s it is those kind of you can’t do it online, you can’t do it um uh, these these kind of like uh more abstract ways to uh express, to show oppression. But there’s also just literal violence happening. There’s literal violent intimidation happening. And I think that we have to address that, too. Um. So, yeah, I just wanted to bring uh that dimension that, like places like Mississippi are still dealing with stuff that feel uh antebellum in their in their in their violence. And I think that is shaping what’s happened. What what we’re seeing when it comes to voting sort of now. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I completely agree. But I also want to shout out Minnesota. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Where you all know if I ever become independently wealthy, I’m getting busses, getting my people out. So I agree, Myles, that there is, yes, that’s true. But it is also happening. It’s happening everywhere. And it’s happening in places where there’s a narrative around it being a nice place. So I think partly it’s, you know, again, as being a liberal elite, what’s often left off of my sort of portfolio is making sure that I’m building, investing, resourcing across the South. Right. We get so focused on, you know, sort of these races in battleground states where everyone’s focused that we leave out, we leave a lot on the table. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: The option to have these little like racist white supremacist islands because we took people took Black people and people of color away from those places specifically. Like Don was saying, when it comes to agriculture, I’ve mentioned it more times than I than probable that my choice to move was about space was about me wanting to be positioned to be able to have property in certain areas. And it’s not fair to have Black people, queer people, whatever, be like, okay, you’ve got Atlanta, D.C., New York, or L.A.. You know, we can’t just be about busing people out of places. It has to be about giving people the tools to protect them while they’re in those places. And then yeah. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I agree. I’m being hyperbolic. I think my, my my point is that. And I think it’s all of our points right? It’s like, where where is the space? Where is the space to have opportunity? Peace of mind, if possible, whatever kind of peace of mind we or we we can attain. Um. But I think that is just I do believe some part of that is I mean, and maybe that is and what I’m making up in my trauma and like making a real Wakanda. Maybe that’s part of it. It’s like not a real thing. But I think in my heart of hearts, like that’s what it goes to. It’s like some some of these places ought to be left behind. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Our Wakanda should be called Earth. There should be no place that Black people don’t feel safe living and breathing. Wakanda mission Earth. [laughter]

 

De’Ara Balenger: Oh, man You right. You right about that. 

 

Don Calloway: On that note. My news story is that it is the beginning of a new session for the Supreme Court. The 2024 2025 session begins this week. Um. And it’s not as kind of like, you know, blockbustery cases as it was over the last couple of years, particularly uh in light of the abortion decision and a lot of the Trump immunity decisions that happened that defined the last two terms. But just like for y’all who don’t know, the Supreme Court term very much mirrors a school year. So it starts in early October and goes through June. And we can expect these decisions to come out intermittently over that that time frame. Uh. Some of the major things right now, we’re looking at our age verification on porn websites. I know that’s big for my teenage sons. Um. That was a joke. And um by the way I’m okay with that, I’m okay with [?], whatever. That’s that’s cool. Um. But no, seriously, uh we’re talking about um a Tennessee case, which the court will be hearing about gender affirming care for minors. So that’s extraordinarily important um two excuse me three transgender youth have brought actions um challenging a Tennessee state law that bars gender affirming care prior to a person reaching the age of decision making majority, which is 18. So this is the kind of the hormone blockers and, you know, treatments of that nature which affirm gender assignments um for youth experience, experiencing gender dysphoria. We expect the Supreme Court to hear that. I have no faith that it will go the way that good faith people would like for that to go. Another one in which I have a little bit more faith, if only for commercial code reasons, if not the actual good reasons that we need them to be decided upon is the ghost guns cases in which the United States Congress and several individual states have banned the commercial sale and use and possession of ghost guns. These are guns that are made from kits that can be shipped from manufacturers in various pieces, and you can effectively assemble a gun or you can even 3D print a gun these days. And those guns are not created with serial numbers from their manufacturers, which allow them to be traced and registered and accounted for, and all of the other things that a civil society would want out of guns, particularly weapons of mass destruction, weapons of war, guns. Um, A, so I I’m hoping I have some hope that even this six three conservative majority Supreme Court would ban ghost guns, if only for the maintenance of some type of non chaotic situation in the commercial context. But we are completely unsure about that. Um. At least one other case of importance I know we’re going to be looking at this session is uh there’s a guy on death row in Oklahoma, a white gentleman, who the entire state agrees that his death penalty should be overturned because there were serious constitutional procedural issues at his trial. And uh the Supreme Court will be weighing in on whether or not what should happen in the instance in which the entire mechanism of criminal justice is prepared to say that someone should not be executed. But uh the governor still has not moved. Um. But I think just the thing to continue to think about is that these Supreme Court um positions are for life. Uh. Joe Biden has proposed an 18 year ban on Supreme Court tenure as opposed to the lifetime tenure that we have now. He’s also proposed good conduct standards, which would questionably bring into some bring into question some of the conduct that we’ve seen around ethics from people like Clarence Thomas and even a little bit from Samuel Alito. But elections matter. We have an election in 29 days. We hope that a President Harris would have the ability to appoint uh Supreme Court justices. We don’t know if she would uh if there will be vacancies and if so, which one of the sides would be the political side for the vacancy. But Supreme Court is coming it’s coming with a Trump packed Supreme Court. And uh we hope that some of these decisions will go our way. But these are just the things to watch for on the Supreme Court docket over the course of this coming school year. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: While we were recording the, it was announced that the Supreme Court upheld the abortion decision in Texas, essentially banning emergency abortions under a set of circumstances. Again, part of the Biden administration’s fight in the lawsuit was that the circumstances for emergencies were not outlined by the local by the Texas Medical Board like the exemptions were not clear. They were pretty vague. And the Supreme Court is um siding with the state of Texas on this. I will say I am so confused by the ferocity of the fight to literally not let women get abortions like in any certain I just am so lost on how hard the right has gone on this. Um. No exemptions, no nothing like trying to get rid of medical abortion, wanting to come after Plan B later. It is just like it I’ve tried. I’ve stopped trying to make sense of it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Just to touch on the trans care piece, and this is I think I expressed this here as well, that I was very disappointed during the um Democratic National Convention, that there was no trans representation for speakers. And now that this trans care is being, you know, I think I’m just bracing for impact because it’s going to be I just feel like it’s going to be banned. Obviously, with the makeup of the Supreme Court, um this is a, this is, that’s, that’s a bloody decision, you know, and I think sometimes it is always seen as, oh well you’re just going to wait until you’re 18. What I’ll say is like a binary trans experience, often can’t wait until 18. That is a very precarious experience and for some we can remember it closer than others. But puberty is hard no matter for cis or trans and being in what you feel as if is the incorrect body or your body is doing things that are against the your psych, your psychology and your psyche. That is that is something that creates and begets suicide and violence against others and against other people. So that is a bloody decision. It’s not just saying, oh well, wait until you’re 18 and decide that you’re going to do it, you’re literally saying that you’re okay with essentially disappearing or annihilating trans trans youth, because that is what happens when you don’t give people trans care. And I I it’s it’s a sticky topic because even inside of the queer trans community like non-binaryness and trans medicalism, it’s always a conversation. But what I will say even about my own like non-binary trans um experience, even somebody who doesn’t like hasn’t medically transitioned is that even things when it comes to clothes and gender expectations, those weren’t little things for me. So it’s not just, oh I want to feel funky or I want to look cool. It was literally like, oh in the [?] I actually would rather not be on this earth than to present in the way that masculinity is making me present. In three piece suits or going sports. I actually remember being 13 considering um killing myself or going to gym with the other boys. Like it’s that kind of it’s that kind of dysphoria. And I think that because we have been socialized in such a binary, limited way of seeing gen seeing gender, we don’t really appreciate the the psychological terrorism that that acts like not giving somebody trans care can can implement. And I don’t think that even the trans community has done the best job at communicating it all the time. But this decision it’s a bloody one, in the same way that the abortion decision is when we have deaths, and we have people who have experienced horrendous things because of that decision, I’m psychologically preparing for the same thing happening when you don’t give trans kids care. 

 

Don Calloway: You know, and this is this is thank you for sharing that, Myles. Um. I want to point out that what the Supreme Court decision would do would uphold where we expect it to go right with this conservative court majority is that it would uphold the ban. So what it would not do is ban gender affirming care nationally. It would uphold places like Tennessee’s ban. And ultimately, what you end up with is this horrific patchwork of civil rights and transgender rights across the country, much like what we’re seeing in the abortion care context. And unfortunately, De’Ara, that is the primary argument against you and Charles Blow for repatriation back to the American South, because we cannot afford to move back to places where our bodies don’t have–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. That’s right.

 

Don Calloway: –the basic humane rights. Right. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: That that’s right. 

 

Don Calloway: Particularly not transpeople, particularly not women, particularly not Black people or all of the most marginalized and vulnerable communities. And so that’s the rub, right, is that the Supreme Court will continue to uphold this really vicious patchwork where, you know, I just want to point out blanket statement. When you hear people from states just say, leave it up to the states. Run the other way. Right. Excuse my language, because civil rights left to the individual states has never been a good place in this country. And that’s just what the objective history of the United States tells us. We cannot leave our civil rights and civil protections up to, you know, the opinions of some, you know, racist state legislatures, legislatures in the Deep South. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah, I think that’s all right. And I think that’s something that I need to even. You know, I’m I make that argument for from a very privileged place. Like I’m thinking of you know getting a place in New Orleans, but that’s also me getting another place to live, not me living there, you know? So I so I know that I have my own work to do on sort of dismantling my own privilege in my mind and just to build off of sort of like [sigh] the loss of life. That is sort of, you know, sort of at the center of these Supreme Court cases. The other case that’s in here is interesting, is that the Mexican government is suing Smith and Wesson because they are basically like since all the guns that are here are your guns, you should be responsible for the violence that the cartels are inflicting upon people. And when you look up the stats, it’s like between 70% and 90% of the guns that are in Mexico come from the United States. Which is wild while we’re so busy, so busy trying to, you know, give this narrative or paint this narrative of Mexico that it is you know violent all on its own, right? So much of–

 

Myles E. Johnson: They should be screaming build the wall. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: 100%. And, you know, I can’t help myself and I love to look at the board of directors for places like Smith and Wesson. Um. It’s a small board. Robert Scott, Anita Britt, Fred Diaz, Michelle Lomar, Barry um Monhete, Mark Smith and brother Dennis Suggs, come on, brother man. What you doing over there on that board what you all talking about? We know your name now. I’m gonna be on your LinkedIn Dennis. Get a message from me, Jack. Um. And then they have the audacity to put like a diversity matrix for their board, which has no diversity, obviously. So interest just you know, I think these are things we also need to be paying attention to, like who’s on these boards and what companies are these people coming from to sit on these boards? You just need to be aware that’s my something that I like to do and look at their giving history. But anyway, another another case which again, it’s about it’s about lives and loss of life, really. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Um. So my news is about reading uh and The Atlantic has a short and sweet article um about how kids are not being taught to read whole books anymore. And it blew my mind. I mean, we all have friends who are professors, and I’ve talked to them recently and they’ve been like, you know, I feel like I’m a full time A.I. specialist or um like ChatGBT, trying to figure out did the kids write the paper or not? That that is a thing that is happening. And the second thing um is this thing about reading, you know, I, I vividly remember reading The Giver. It was the book that made me love books. I read we read the whole book in middle school. I remember reading um here Rolling Thunder, Hear My Cry and all these books that we’ve read as class since. And to know now that that is just not a part of like people aren’t reading like in school, you’re not reading the whole book you’re reading an essay, a piece. There’s a professor in this article who even talks about that their students can’t even read a whole sonnet anymore like that the, something has happened with people’s attention span. And it’s not even that they don’t you know, this talks about elite schools, not even if they don’t want to, but that they weren’t ever taught as middle schoolers and high schoolers to actually just have to sustain reading an entire book. I remember in college when we had to read the book in two days, you know, we had to come to class like the next class. The whole book is done, you know. And I remember in college the first time that I ever had to write a 25 page paper, I didn’t even know that was a thing. I remember being like, people will write 20 page that’s crazy to me. Um. So it made me sad because what is a world of literature and thought and complex thinking and da da da when kids don’t get the whole story, they don’t they don’t see a book from start to finish. I remember reading Beloved and being like, I didn’t know people could write like that. Like, I like the way it ended. I was like, oh this is what a lyrical text is. I was like, oh she did that, you know? Um. So this both made me sad and it was like, oh we got to figure this out. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: So this one. So one of my best friends Xochitl Gonzalez, she writes for The Atlantic. She I remember her calling me because she wrote a piece and I just shared it with you all actually, that is called the Schools that are no longer teaching kids to read books and the schools for which she’s speaking are New York public schools. So in this piece, Xochitl says um this the city, New York City, has adopted a new literacy literacy regimen under which many public elementary schools are in fact are in effect, giving up the teaching of books, storybooks, narrative nonfiction books, children’s chapter books. The curriculum is part of an initiative from Eric Adams’ administration called ironically, New York City Reads. Plummeting reading comprehension is a national problem, but it’s particularly acute in New York City. Half of its third to eighth graders and 60% of those who are Black and Latino cannot read at grade level. 

 

Don Calloway: Yeah. Is it time to just blanket like all things Eric Adams, can just go. [laughter] Wherever he goes, they go with um. You know, I wonder how much the intrusion of devices has to do with this. Um. Obviously, audio books are books, the same content, but there’s still something to placing eyes on a page that matters, uh at least to our generation. Um. But I I have not done the science or read the research other than seeing DeRay’s extraordinarily disheartening article this morning. But it has to have something to do with the digital intrusion into our our hands and mind space. Um. You know, I think my kids are relatively well read. Pun intended, bad pun. But I don’t know when they’ve opened books other than being on devices. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. Well, you probably won’t be able to see this, but like, I have like books behind me right, children’s books. And I like, wrote one. I just love reading. Um. And I think you’re right around the digital intrusion, but I think that’s not the full picture of the story. And sometimes and y’all can push back if sometimes maybe I give too much credence to cultural stuff, but I do think that is what forms, what we’re what we’re experiencing and specifically when it comes to reading. So my partner, my boyfriend um works with grades five through eight right now, and the diagnostics are really bad um when it comes to illiteracy in that age group. Um. And they mirror or sometimes are worse than a lot of the stats that we see in this article. I think another thing around it is reading is not seen as cool. And I don’t just mean cool as in, oh the popular thing to do. But there was something when I was even at ten, I did not understand all things uh things fall apart at ten, but I read it because I wanted to be like Spike Lee or I wanted to be like the Roots or I didn’t, even literature now that I see as deeply homophobic or problematic. When I was reading Dr. Cress Welsing’s The Isis Papers, I wanted to pursue that knowledge because it was seen as cool to be smart and it was seen as something interesting to be smart. So sometimes in a lot of ways, even at 12 or 13 when I was reading maybe like radical literature, that I didn’t quite all the way understand that I had to revisit year and year, year again to really let it soak into my consciousness. I wanted to accomplish the esthetic of being a well read person and sometime even that opened me up into learning more. And I don’t think that we have that capacity. I think to kind of link it back to uh Coates. That might be why I have such an affinity for um for Mr. Coates because he is a popular person doing things, doing things that are seen as cool, making comic books, being famous, having, having, having money. And he did it through his mind. And I think that as a culture, we have we have we have devalued that. And I don’t think that’s just young people. I think even the older people who do read, who come from our generation do the same thing all the time, too. You know, I think that we we often this is not no call outs. I’m just saying this. Because I think we all do it. But I see people talking about what they ate and what and and and their gems and their bodies or the vacations they’re on way before I see people post books. Way before I even if you don’t read the book. I remember I was so happy to remember during the pandemic where everybody was posting All About Love. I don’t know if everybody did it, but that creates a culture around consuming literature that I think improves things. And if we’re not doing it and and influence each other with that culture, you can be sure that children who are the most impressionable of us are not going to be influenced by it either. So that’s just the culture dimension that that this makes me think of um that is not just digital intrusion or bad schooling, but it’s also just a culture, American culture that we’re in right now overall that’s influencing illiteracy and the motivation to pursue intellectual goals. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere, more Pod Save the People is coming. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

Myles E. Johnson: Hi, you are listening to Pod Save the People. I am Myles E. Johnson and I am sitting down and speaking to Herb Murrell. The a founding member of the iconic legendary soul group The Stylistics. I hope you all enjoy this conversation. Well, first, I want to say good afternoon. I’m so excited to speak to you. I’m a huge Stylistics fan. Um. The Stylistics, Delfonics, Heat Wave. 

 

Herb Murrell: Why thank you. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I just grew up listening to y’alls music so this is a dream come true. So just thank you so much for um taking the time out to speak to me. 

 

Herb Murrell: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you kindly. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I wanted to go back to the origin of the group. I know we going we going way back, but I wanted to see when you all came together, did you have the idea about the impact you all would make? Musically? 

 

Herb Murrell: Not. Not really. Uh. The the Stylistics is comprised of two two different groups at that time. Um. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Mmm. 

 

Herb Murrell: Russell, Airrion, and James Smith was from the Monarchs. Myself, James Dunn was from Percussions. And the way we came together was after completion of high school. Members from both organizations either went on to further school and college or whatever, or to the armed services. Upon the urgence of a teacher at the school we attended, Ben Franklin High. Miss Beverly Hamilton, she said, let’s put the remaining members together. And that started the group. But uh and thinking on knowing that we would be as you know successful as we have been, there was no inclination of that. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: What was the what was you all’s musical influence at that time? What were you listening to? Who were you trying to be like? What what was going on in your ears at that time? 

 

Herb Murrell: Of course, said the big thing back then was all the doo wop groups. Uh. And of course, the Motown sound with The Temptations, Gladys Knight and the Pips and all of that. But as a group that was starting out and just working local clubs and local you know establishments, we did everything from Aretha Franklin to the Temptations to the Pips. You name it, we did it as an upcoming group. You know, to get that recognition. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So what so when I hear you all and this is with my this is with my ears and I guess I’m in a weird position, but with my ears, when I listen to you all, y’all are somewhere between the Temptations and, like, Funkadelic. There’s some things that you all would do that were so experimental um and– 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –kind of hinted on psychedelic soul sounds. So where did that kind of influence come from? Where where did y’all taking risk on that front come from? 

 

Herb Murrell: Well, anything that was that we did and growing uh came from our introduction musically to the producer, Thom Bell. Who found a way along with his lyricist, the late Linda Creed, found a way to utilize Russell Thompkins Junior’s tenor in the songs that we did. You Are Everything, Betcha by golly, wow. Stop, look, and listen. You make me feel brand new. This goes on and on and on. But the the influence of Thom’s orchestrations, his music, Russell Thompkins’ falsetto, you know, better established that sound for the group uh in the beginning of our recording career. And as we went on further with the recordings uh with the likes of the late great Van McCoy, uh gave us that extra punch with I Can’t Give You Anything. Hey girl, come and get it. You know, Funky Weekend, those songs. So that was the difference right there and kind of balanced things out. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Got it. Got it. And this is this just came to me, but I’ll forget it. So I’m kind of jumping around, but I’m excited to talk to you. So I’m asking you all the questions that are coming into my head. Um. What so I’m a huge– 

 

Herb Murrell: Go deal them up. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I’m. I’m also a huge Phyllis Hyman fan. Um. My name is My– my dad’s a jazz person, so that’s why I got my name. So Phyllis Hyman um was was and Pharoah Sanders were a big part of my household. What was the experience hearing– 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: The take that Phyllis did on y’alls song specifically because she’s a solo woman doing that song, and you all were obviously um obviously men. So what was y’alls um reaction to that, if you if you can remember? 

 

Herb Murrell: Oh Phyllis took it and took it to another level with her, with her vocals. With her vocal capability and her sound and her just her deliverance of the song and it wasn’t like she was just doing it to be doing it. You could tell that she put her heart into it [?] and the vocals came across that way. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right, right. Um. So the the 1970s, once we get to the 1970s with The Stylistics, you all have a string of hits. You know, I say that Black people, um jazz is one of obviously one of our great creations. But I do think the soul music–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –of the ’70s has to be like considered Black classical music. I think that that is the music that across generations we all joined together on, even to this day. And you all had so–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –many hit by so many hits during the ’70s. What was or how how do you account for that type of that type of luck? Do you just think we were just good? [laugh] It was God, what what what do you account for that type of luck um. 

 

Herb Murrell: Well, we can take some of that all the above the grace of God put us in the place at the right time, working with the right producers, right song, right songwriters that allowed those songs to just once they people heard them and they came out and they heard them on the radio, they went straight to the top. And we were very fortunate, very blessed to be in that position. It was like the writers and the producers that played a very big part in doing what we did in terms of presenting the songs to the public. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. Um. And you kind of touched on it earlier, but I had a question around um Thom Bell. Obviously he had a huge impact on your impact on your music um can you share what it was like um working with him and how he helped shape the sound of the Stylistics? Just a little bit nittier grittier like what what what what was so cause it’s still a it’s a it’s a interesting, unique sound that you all came up with. I just want to get into what those what the what was going on creatively in the room. 

 

Herb Murrell: Well, Thom Bell to me personally was more of a teacher because at the time we was recording, we were all kids, man. You know what I’m saying? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right, right, right, right. 

 

Herb Murrell: 18, 19 year olds. So and then to be able to work with the likes of somebody like Thom Bell, it was it was a really a teaching experience. Knowing and just watching Thom sit down at the piano and play something. And then what you experienced with him playing in the room and then to hear it later on in the studio where he has now with all the strings, the harps, the horns, the bells and all of that, that transition to know that you’re working with somebody that can comprise music in that nature. Like I said to me, he was more uh than a producer. He was a teacher because I learned very a lot from Thom Bell. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I love that. Um. I’m about to jump to another person. Russell Russell Thom [laugh], Russell Thompkins–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: -junior’s falsetto became a signature of your music. 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m interested in talking to you about this because you are a baritone. How did the rest of the group–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –complement that sound? What was y’alls relationship musically? What was going on specifically during the recording and live sessions? Um. How did you all find that harmony was just practice or was there some some magic going on too. [?]

 

Herb Murrell: It was just magic. It was just the magic of what Thom Bell put together. Thom Bell had a working with Russell, like I said, he used Russell’s voice like it was an instrument. And the accent and the answers came with the background vocals. And the same way he would play a string line and the string line will ask a question answered by a Bell line. So he knew in his head how he wanted all of this to come together and and that made what The Stylistics was about. So but it all started with the arrangements of Thom Bell, the accent of Russell Thompkins falsetto and the and everything else was just built around that. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Was it hard to keep the um chemistry of the group as you all got successful? Was was I mean I I know a lot about the ’70s, but specifically when I think about Funk and Funkadelic and um and Betty Davis and kind of like the drugs and the and the egos that were happening in the ’70s. 

 

Herb Murrell: Mm Yeah. Right, right, right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: How did you all kind of ride that wave kind of um emotionally during that time, too? Not just musically, but just how did, I just haven’t heard any wild stories about The Stylistics, but I’m sure– 

 

Herb Murrell: Right.

 

Myles E. Johnson: –that [laugh] but I’m sure y’all were getting, you know, y’all were offered, offered everything, there was money. How did, how did y’all avoid mess? 

 

Herb Murrell: Well, what we did so in the beginning because we were taught by some very impressionable people along the way, is that we sat down and had a meeting amongst ourselves saying, Look, this is happening, but we got to keep our feet on solid ground. Don’t let this go to your head. Of course, you know, with any group and every group of guys, when when everything starts happening, egos come into play. But then when you see somebody that’s getting ready to step across a line, yo man come on back over here, what are you doing man? You know what I’m saying? So it’s about that we sat down with each other and solidified what we were about and what we were doing and what helped it was the hits were coming so quick and we would add them into the show as they were coming. So we never had no time with the ego tripping and all that. Because [?]–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Got it. 

 

Herb Murrell: –[?] steady working from the [?] from those hits, you know what I’m saying? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. No, no, no time for mess because you’re were on the road. Y’all were working. 

 

Herb Murrell: We was definitely on the road. Working, doing worldwide tours, not just tours in the States, but worldwide tours. You know what I mean? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I’m very um I’m about to touch on this new um uh milestone that y’all hit, but I wanted to know about because I probably will never talk to a founding member of The Stylistics again. I wanted to know about 2004, the um y’all getting inducted into the um Hall of Fame. What did that mean to you um uh mean to you all? The um the uh I think the exact thing is um vocal group Hall of Fame in 2004. 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. Well, you know, anytime uh somebody can take and admire or admonish what you do and give you praise for it is a blessing, uh it’s not that you go out looking for these things that happen per se, but when they come your way, it’s a crown on the head. So it’s it’s a beautiful thing. It’s a blessing to be in that position to achieve and to accept those kind of things. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I have my own opinions on what’s going on in music. And of course, we won’t be naming anything. We’re not that kind of podcast. But I do want to know–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: What are you what are you listening to? Because I feel like it even specifically in Black music, I feel like we’ve never been so stratified me– meaning, you know, there used to be maybe I was listening to something. My sister, who’s ten years older than me, is listening to something else. And my mom, who was born in 1960, she’s listening to something else. But we still had some music that really met us, so we would still listen to–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –certain music together. Um. But now I feel like that’s that’s kind of not a thing anymore. So–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m I’m interested because I’m I was born in ’91, but I’m sitting I’m listening to Herbie Hancock and Stevie and and I’m [?] unplugged. But I’m curious to what you’re listening to and I need to write it down because I’m sure whatever you listening to is what I want to be listening to too. 

 

Herb Murrell: Well, [laugh] well, you know, um by me being old school and I was I was blessed and fortunate to as as I’m growing to not only listen to R&B music, but also like you, jazz music, you know, I mean, all the jazz artists that came along during that era and you had no choice but to listen to it because it was from it. That’s what was being played and that’s what everybody was playing. Like you say, you walk into somebody’s house so it was nothing to hear them playing Herbie Hancock. You know what I mean, it was nothing to hear Grant Green on the guitar, you know, coming out and somebody is [?]. You know what I mean? So those things uh was prominent back then and the growing of uh, of folks through music. So when the R&B became the big popular thing, you still had those eras that grew with it, mother, father, sister, brother. Everybody was listening to it, dancing to it, having a good time with it, you know what I mean? And just going going a step forward, it’s just unfortunate that the way music has turned now uh and not taking anything [?], believe me, for what the young folks are doing. They doing what they do and they doing what they love to do. But the camaraderie is not there no longer. You know, what I’m saying? Is that’s the one thing because the young folks who say, oh man get out of here that that that’s that’s old. That’s old. Get out of here. I don’t want that. But they forgot that’s where it all came from. That’s the that was the schooling of what what you’re doing now. So you need to go if you want to be around in this business, take a trip back, school yourself, what was going on and how it was done with the old school. All the doo wop, all the R&B groups and all the jazz artists that opened the doors and laid that game plan down for you to follow. So you need to go back and like just check it out instead of like thinking that what you’re doing is now the thing. And that right there, don’t laugh. And that’s our problem. We don’t do the history of our own music. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And we and it’s and it’s a build up, right? So you once you are able to hear it and I think that’s how come I love the Stylistics so much, I think between you the Stylistics and Heat Wave, when I listen to both of you all. 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um there’s so many you can hear, when uh in y’alls you all’s influence, you can hear the traditional R&B, the doo wop, you can hear that, but then you also can hear where the ’70s was going with Bitches Brew and Jimi Hendrix. And you could kind of and I know you are crediting a lot of that to the production of um Thom Bell, but regardless, you’re you all just were masterful in, in, in creating that. And now listening back is a snapshot of where we were in Black music at that time. So it’s it makes for better music, I think I don’t know. Have you heard of um I don’t know if you’ve heard of the young jazz singer Samara Joy? 

 

Herb Murrell: No, I have not. But you’re turning me on to something new. [laugh]. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So Samara Joy is an amazing, talented, young um Black jazz singer from the Bronx. Young Black girl. Um. 

 

Herb Murrell: Okay. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: She’s I don’t I don’t even think that she’s I don’t think she’s 22 yet. And I saw her at the Blue Note. 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And um that was a that was another time that um and you’ll kind of hear her riffing some of your stuff and sometimes she’ll riff like–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –a Stevie Wonder thing or a Stylistics thing. So it just made me curious. So I’ll send it to your publicist so you can get him to work because she’s amazing. 

 

Herb Murrell: Please, please do. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: She’s um very, very close to Nancy Wilson and she actually covered Nancy Wilson. Um. 

 

Herb Murrell: Okay. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Guess who I saw today, so she she’s one of the people. 

 

Herb Murrell: Oh yeah please.

 

Myles E. Johnson: That I could say. Um so–

 

Herb Murrell: Yes, make sure I get that, make sure I get that information. [laugh]

 

Myles E. Johnson: I will. I will. I will. So, Carnegie Hall. That is a huge, huge feat. I know that um just like artists like Nina Simone comes to mind of how Carnegie Hall. 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Was such a big, big, big part of her career. I wonder what it means–

 

Herb Murrell: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –to you now because you’re in your in the mature part of your career. So it’s not it’s not a you’re you don’t have anything to prove. So what does it mean to get to be at Carnegie Hall, I believe this is y’alls second time at Carnegie Hall, though, right? 

 

Herb Murrell: This will be our second time, our 50th–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

Herb Murrell: –Anniversary. Yes. [laugh] [?].

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. Okay. 

 

Herb Murrell: This is our second trip to Carnegie Hall. Unlike the first time, because the first time was brand new to us. It was a frightening experience, I must say, to walk out on that stage and see the amount of people in that building. You know what I mean? It was that as an entertainer, you always have that little nervous thing before you go on. Because that’s your anticipation. But to walk out there and it’s like you walk out into another world, you know what I mean? And along with the prestige that goes with playing the building itself under the name of Carnegie Hall, you know what I mean? That was like, bang, a big, big thing. So of course, you was on edge as an entertainer because you wanted to do the best you could. You you you were just thinking though, we got to take this thing over the top because these folks is out here, waiting to see what you going to do now that you got here to these doors here, What are you going to do with it? You know what I mean? So now, is going back to now that we’ve grown and matured through our music. It’s more. I wouldn’t say there’s nothing never easy about it, but it’s more relaxing now because we can go in with a more of a relaxed feeling, relaxed attitude and doing what we doing because we now we know how to go about doing what we do. So it’s definitely, definitely a thing of looking forward to doing Carnegie Hall once again in our career. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Well, I am. I’m for one excited to see you all. I am. I’m just so grateful to have that you took the time out to speak to me. I hope that my love for your music, you could just, like, feel it emanating. Because when I tell you. 

 

Herb Murrell: Oh I see, I. Yeah, I. Yeah. I feel it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: [?] When I tell you y’all are just y’all are everything to me. [laugh] To be corny. 

 

Herb Murrell: [laugh] Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah so so. 

 

Herb Murrell: I know I know. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I’m so I’m just. I’m just deeply, deeply grateful for your time. Thank you for um talking to us. Talking to me at Pod Save the People and um see you at Carnegie Hall. You all will be at Carnegie Hall, October 11th, correct? 

 

Herb Murrell: Right. Right. That’s correct. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. So I will I will be seeing you all at October 11th. And if you’re listening and it’s not October 11th, get your tickets. You do not want to miss this. 

 

Herb Murrell: Oh yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I got to see Patti, Patti LaBelle, Jill Scott. And now I’m about to see the Stylistics. I’m seeing I’m seeing all the icons um and and Anita Baker. 

 

Herb Murrell: You putting this in good company with that with that word. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: No. Y’all are, y’all are amazing, y’all amazing. 

 

Herb Murrell: Thank you. Thank you so much. [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at Crooked Media on IG, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Evan Sutton. Executive produced by me, and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson. [music break]

 

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