Parliament is back in session and so is Pod Save the UK! Coco is joined by Zoë Grünewald, filling in for Nish, to discuss Keir Starmer’s gloomy new lines trailing what’s shaping up to be a miserable Autumn budget.

 

Free political point scoring around the Oasis/Ticketmaster fiasco probably isn’t going to be enough to offset the grim energy emanating from the Government’s plan to means test the Winter Fuel Allowance for pensioners, despite some glints of hope in other policy areas. Coco and Zoë also discuss Jeremy Corbyn’s new political alliance, restrictions on arms sales licences to Israel and Labour’s mooted outdoor smoking ban.

 

Later, they’re joined by James Riding, Chief Reporter at Inside Housing, to discuss the final report from the Grenfell Inquiry, exploring the “Decades of failure” and “systematic dishonesty” behind the disaster.

 

Finally, they check in on the Tory leadership race, where the five remaining candidates are struggling for recognition within the public eye.

 

Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

 

 

Contact us via email: PSUK@reducedlistening.co.uk

WhatsApp: 07494 933 444 (UK) or + 44 7494 933 444 (internationally)

Insta: https://instagram.com/podsavetheuk

Twitter: https://twitter.com/podsavetheuk

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@podsavetheuk

Facebook: https://facebook.com/podsavetheuk

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/podsavetheworld

 

Guests: 

Zoë Grünewald, Political Journalist

James Riding, chief reporter at Inside Housing

 

Audio credits:

Sky News

Number 10 Downing Street

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

[AD]

 

Coco Khan Today on Pod Save the UK. We’re back. And so is Parliament. The Grenfell inquiry reaches its conclusion and the Tory leadership hopefuls struggle for recognition. Plus we’re joined by Zoe Groeneveld. Is that good? A little bit of European embellishment. She’s filling in for Nish this week. Hi, Zoe.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Like, okay. Thank you so much for having me. And, you know, I’ve got big shoes to fill.

 

Coco Khan Big shoes.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I’m looking forward to getting them.

 

Coco Khan But first, a tweet that really captures the nation’s mood this week. Are you ready for it, Zoe? It’s just two words. Nationalize Ticketmaster.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Wow. That is two powerful words, right?

 

Coco Khan The chills.

 

Zoe Groeneveld That is the tongue in cheek tweet, obviously, from Zarah Sultana, MP for Coventry South, currently suspended from the Labor Party for voting against the government over the two child benefit cap standing up for the thousands of people who took to their computers across the country and missed out on tickets to Oasis over the weekend.

 

Coco Khan Yes. Did you get tickets?

 

Zoe Groeneveld No, I’m not really an Oasis person.

 

Coco Khan Is that because you’re a blur person?

 

Zoe Groeneveld I’m not really a.

 

Coco Khan Blur because.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I’m. I’m really.

 

Coco Khan A Britpop.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Person. I am a sort of, Taylor Swift fan. Oh, to be quite honest.

 

Coco Khan Okay. Okay. That’s fine, that’s fine. I also didn’t get tickets. Not because I wouldn’t enjoy it. Who doesn’t love singing their heart out? And, you know, I’m. I’m of the age where I. I do appreciate the Britpop, but I just had this moment. I was like, I’m going to leave this for the real fans. And there are plenty of them.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I didn’t realize there were quite so many fans, actually. I like I know a lot of people who applied for, applied for Oasis tickets, tried to get Oasis tickets, and I sort of thought you’ve never mentioned them before?

 

Coco Khan Yeah.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Like, where’s this come from?

 

Coco Khan This has come from.

 

Zoe Groeneveld But no, I mean, it was quite extraordinary. So, you know, for anyone that didn’t get swept up in it, it was a bit of a nightmare. There were long digital queue times of up to ten hours. People telling me they literally couldn’t leave their computer all day. And when people got to the front of the queue, some fans were faced with prices of up to 350 400 pounds, 200 more than the 150 they were allowed.

 

Coco Khan Tickets sold through Ticketmaster was subject to what’s known as dynamic pricing, where as demand for tickets goes up, the price rises. Ticketmaster say dynamic prices keeps the price in line with what scalpers might be selling them for, with an aim to keep the money with the artist and also with Ticketmaster, and is allowed under consumer protection law. Nonetheless, Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy has ordered a probe into ticket surge pricing, saying we will include issues around the transparency and use of dynamic pricing, including the technology around queuing systems which incentivize it. In our forthcoming consultation on consumer protections for ticket resales, which I guess is her way of saying I will look back in anger and I will not roll with it yet.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Did you get that? I get the first.

 

Coco Khan Okay.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Cause I do know that much. Okay, great. Well, yeah. She certainly doesn’t want any bad blood on this.

 

Coco Khan Oh, yeah, I see what’s coming.

 

Zoe Groeneveld It’s. I mean, yeah. Lisa Nandy is culture secretary, so this is very much her domain, you know? And every new secretary of state wants to some their political stamp on these things.

 

Coco Khan Do you think it’s going to change anything?

 

Zoe Groeneveld Well, they’ve, they’ve, they’ve sort of made a big point about this. So I imagine that they will look into this policy. And you know what, Lisa? Andy, I think she definitely wanted Oasis tickets. I’m not sure if she got them. Lucy Powell or so you know, quite a few of them have made statements about this. So I would imagine it’s you know, it’s a free political point for the government, isn’t it? If they manage to do this, it’s something that they can talk about. And yeah, they can say they made ticket prices more accessible for people then. Then everything is fixed.

 

Coco Khan Okay. Well, let’s talk about Keir Starmers theme song of the summer. He’s not an Oasis fan. He’s not living his bright girl summer. I can’t imagine Keir Starmer listening to music. No, I think he just sits in silence. The producers have written a joke here that I don’t understand, but I’m going to read it. He’s much more of a more misery business kind of guy. Yeah. Do you get that? I get.

 

Zoe Groeneveld That one.

 

Coco Khan Day I feel like I’m getting some insights into you.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Is that I don’t want to admit this, but Paramore was actually a support act when I went to see Taylor Swift. I’m talking a lot about Taylor Swift way too much. I’m not that much of a superfan. But yeah, no, you’re right. Starmer has been selling a very kind of cold, somber gloom to us at the minute. Here’s the Prime Minister speaking just last week.

 

Clip We have to take action and do things differently. Part of that is being honest with people about the choices that we face, how tough this will be. And frankly, things will get worse before they get better.

 

Zoe Groeneveld So for our podcast listeners, it’s probably worth setting the scene a bit here. It’s almost like the clip has been desaturated. I mean, it’s very funeral esque. He is, yes, stood behind elected with a label reading Fixing the Foundations in white text. The background is completely black. He’s wearing a gray tie and a charcoal suit, and even his hair is very, very gray.

 

Coco Khan Yeah, he’s got an. Sad, somber expression. He genuinely looks like he’s at a funeral, you know? Part of me was thinking, oh, who died? Was it Larry the cat who died? But he’s actually just telling us that everything’s going to be a lot worse. So what’s the logic of making that announcement?

 

Zoe Groeneveld So we know that there’s going to be a, autumn statement coming up, which is going to be incredibly bleak. So I think Starmer is trying to cede the ground for people to be aware that there are probably going to be tax rises and there’s probably going to be public spending cuts. I think he’s also he wants to let the public know that he’s taking very, very seriously the doom and gloom picture that has been left by 14 years of conservative austerity, 14 years of conservative rule. And he’s also asking that people to stick with him for a decade. He says it’s going to take ten years for a labor government to turn around the country’s fortunes. Things won’t get better over the night, you know, stick with me. The previous government left things really, really badly. And I think, you know, people have clearly bought the narrative. Quite rightly, I would say that the conservatives have done a lot of damage to this country. But is doom and gloom the best way to sell that? Because people voted for change? That was Labor’s motto. That was their tagline. If you’re saying it’s going to be ten years till you feel better, I think people are going to feel pretty fed up. Yeah. And I mean, realistically, he actually has five years until he faces voters again. And at some point in those five years, he’s going to have to pinpoint things that labor have been able to achieve. But, you know, there is a different story that the labor government could tell, which is actually there’s a lot of things to be hopeful about. There’s a lot of things to look forward to. We are, you know, pushing through planning reforms. We’re doing X, we’re doing Y, we’re nationalizing the railways. We’re going to make those with the broadest shoulders finally pay their fair share. He could say it like that rather than, it’s just going to be awful. All this is going to do, I think, is make the media go crazy for the next couple of months until we get the budget. And there’s going to be lots of briefing and premium and that all his ministers are going to be quizzed on. Are you going to raise council tax? Are you going to, raise capital gains tax? Are you going to tax pensions, all these difficult questions that they might not actually even know the answer to yet. So, I don’t know if it was the most politically savvy way of presenting things. I think people know the economic picture is bleak, but I think people want hope. And yes, okay, it makes sense to get all your worst policies out, the most unpopular policies out of the way at the beginning, because you don’t have to face the electorate again for five years time. But, you know, the media isn’t going to be gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re going to put you in a corner. And there is something to be said about thinking about what the electorate want to hear and thinking about what voters want to hear, and trying to make things a bit more hopeful for them.

 

Coco Khan But speaking of very unpopular policies, one of the groups most likely to feel the pinch that Starmer is trailing here are pensioners. Before parliamentary recess, Chancellor Rachel Reeves announced the government’s decision to restrict winter fuel payment of up to 300 pounds to only those receiving pension credit. So the government has been on the defensive over their decision. They’re chalking it up to the 22 billion black hole that labor claims the previous government left them as a post-election gift. Here’s leader of the Commons Lucy Powell, defending the policy on BBC breakfast. If we haven’t.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Taken that action, we’ve seen a run on the pound. We’d have seen the economy crashing and the people who pay the heaviest price for that are the poorest and pensioners and those on fixed incomes. So that stability is really important. Those are the living standards.

 

Coco Khan Well, the comments certainly attracted a lot of attention. Some economists, including Ben Franco from the IFS, told the Ft that the comment was silly and that there may be political reason to try and keep Liz Truss in the imagination of the British public, but this is not a helpful contribution. So is it just politics? More politicking?

 

Zoe Groeneveld I think there is a a tiny grain of truth to it. Let me explain. I think I think Lucy Powell is talking in the wider context of the fact that the government have revealed this 22 billion deficit. So if the government was to say there’s this huge hole in our budget, it’s terrible, it’s awful, it’s way worse than we thought and then not announce difficult decisions, you know, like. Spending cuts or tax rises. Then you could see that there could be a panicked economic reaction. You know, if you’re not filling that budget, we know that the markets tend to panic. So I you I don’t think you can pin it on the winter fuel allowance, but you can see the the logic that says now that all of that’s been revealed. We have to act because the markets will be spooked. But then of course, mainly there is a political benefit to evoking trust because it’s a reminder of this narrative they keep telling, which is the Tories have absolutely trashed the economy. And it’s very similar to what we heard in 2010. You know, when, when, the conservative government came in and they were saying that labor had destroyed the economy, it it works, actually, it kept labor out of power for quite a few years. People believe it. The main problem is, I think people do feel like, why do we have to keep paying for the mistakes of incompetent politicians? And that’s again, go back to the original point. That’s why labor have to offer something more, something more hopeful as well.

 

Coco Khan But also, I mean pensioners for real. That’s that’s one of the, one of the earliest policies is you’re going to go for pensioners already one of the most vulnerable groups. Look, I get that there’s obviously generational wealth inequality, but there are working class pensioners. There are pensioners in poverty. And it’s not like, you know, at the moment the threshold is if they get 11,300 pounds a year income in from their pensions, they will not be eligible for winter fuel. That’s not that much money. You know, like with the cost of everything being as it is. So I don’t think they can say they’re not putting some pensioners into poverty. And that all feels very Tory, doesn’t it?

 

Zoe Groeneveld Absolutely. And I think I think it’s worth saying that I believe the Tories almost certainly would have done this if they’d got back into power.

 

Coco Khan But they love pensioners, pensioners vote and pensioners vote Tory. Really.

 

Zoe Groeneveld All right. So Kemi Badenoch, in her 2022 leadership bid, said that she actually thought was a good idea to means test the winter fuel allowance. And I’ve spoken to a couple of conservatives who’ve actually said it’s quite a smart move. We needed to do it. So I think a lot of this outrage is manufactured from the Tories. I mean, and it’s opportunistic because actually, I think they were already considering the idea of means testing the winter fuel allowance. As you say, it’s a Tory. It feels like a Tory policy. I think it probably would have been. But you’re completely right. So while, pensioners have gotten much wealthier, there is also a proportion of pensions who have got much poorer. You know, that inequality has has increased. The first issue is that there’ll be a proportion of pensioners who are not eligible to receive the winter fuel allowance, but they’ll really struggle without it. And then the other issue is that only two thirds of eligible people who are enrolled for Pension Credit actually claim it. So there’s a whole other group who should be getting Pension Credit, but they don’t for whatever reason. So you’re completely right. There is a group of pensioners who are going to be at risk.

 

Coco Khan I know you’re saying it’s a group of people and perhaps it might be a minority. It’s unclear to me how many people are going to be affected. I know they’re talking about, reforming the way, Pension Credit is administered and perhaps people that might fall in the net might not, in the end. But I do think there’s also something about like, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about the feeling of hope and the feeling of security and those things that you want from a government, particularly from a labor government. You know, it’s having a chat with a neighbor of mine. He’s in his 90s now, and he’s obviously been retired and have been on a pension for for ages over 20 years. Right. And so he was saying that when you first go onto your pension, you ought to get told how much you’re going to get. But what you can never anticipate is how much prices will increase. Wherever you think at the time, you might think, well, hey, that’s fantastic. And then 15 years later, you’ve got no means of earning more. And that feeling of being scared, being afraid and worrying about stuff that is a feeling that, you know, many families, younger people have experience. I’ve experienced it myself. I don’t really wish it upon anyone. So I don’t really see how more people experiencing that is an improvement.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I know people don’t vote for a labor government in that, with the thought that they’re going to start taking people’s benefits away. You know, it’s one of those things that you tend to think especially vulnerable groups, as you say, pensioners would be safe. Labor is keeping the triple lock, as far as I’m aware. So there is a suggestion that pensions may go up 400 pounds next year. Okay. Which I think labor will probably be hoping to sell. Is it offsetting this slightly? Now, as you say, prices go up. The other benefit, you know, we might see other spending cuts. We might see other tax rises. Actually, in practice it’s still going to be a struggle for lots of people, especially if energy prices keep going up, which seems to be the, you know, the tax cut.

 

Coco Khan I paid 9 pounds for my smoothie today. It is.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I saw you coming I think.

 

Coco Khan Yeah that’s it. So here’s a topic that’s going to split opinion but is probably good for the health of the nation. The government has announced that it is considering a smoking ban in outdoor venues and pub gardens. Here’s Starmer arguing for the consideration on Sky news.

 

Clip Over 80,000 people lose their lives every year because of smoking. That’s a preventable death. It’s a huge burden on the NHS and of course, it’s. Burden on the taxpayer. So yes, we are going to take decisions in this space. More details will be revealed. But this is a preventable, series of deaths. And we’ve got to take the action to reduce the burden on the NHS and reduce the burden on the taxpayer.

 

Coco Khan So the proposal has been met with praise from healthcare organizations. While lobby groups for pubs and nightlife are concerned about the effect on hospitality. Unsurprisingly, conservative media has gone into overdrive, calling the proposal absurd and accusing the government of creating a nanny state. So what are you saying? You’re into this, aren’t you?

 

Zoe Groeneveld Oh, I don’t know. I mean, look, it’s really bad timing. I think I can say that, you know, I’m not. I don’t think this was labor. I think we’re very annoyed that this was briefed out. Because, you know, Keir Starmer just stood up and said everything’s going to be terrible for a long time. And of course, with all the the fallout from the riots, there’s a big sort of caucus of right wingers already calling him authoritarian. So when people get word that you’re going to introduce a very authoritarian and very gloomy policy, it’s just not.

 

Coco Khan Everything’s rubbish and you cannot have a Trump, by the way.

 

Zoe Groeneveld So yeah, exactly. Do I think it’s a bad policy? I’m in two minds. You know, there is a sort of libertarian part of me that thinks, you know, who cares? But I think when it comes to smoking and particularly my, my, my thing is the NHS. Right? The NHS is in such dire straits and there’s only so much that, you know, plug it with money and trying to like, reform bits of it can do. What we really need is a preventative approach to health care and smoking, you know, cost the NHS so much money. It takes a lot of people’s lives. I can completely understand the public health drive to save the NHS by pushing people away from smoking. And with cigarettes, you know, the highly addictive. A lot of people start smoking socially. I started smoking socially when I was at university, so if you make it a bit more socially unacceptable, you can see that people would stop doing it.

 

Coco Khan Yeah.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Pub gardens.

 

Coco Khan I mean, I don’t I didn’t hear that there was a lot of secondhand smoke problems in pub gardens. I thought that that was mediated by the being outdoors. So and I’m not really sure how they’re going to enforce this. You’re just going to send a load of smokers to what, like a couple of roads over and they will they’ll congregate. And I don’t really understand how it’s going to work. Yes, I am bias. I do like to be in a pub garden and have a have a cigaret, so me too.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I like, you know, and this is what I kind of struggle with.

 

Coco Khan A few weeks ago we spoke to the chair of the NHS Confederation, Victor Adebowale, and he told us that like a really good way of thinking about how we organize society is to think about health in every single policy. I mean, in, in some respects this is a perfect example about that. So I kind of get it. But I also have this thing where, you know, Rishi Sunak has brought in legislation where generationally, the ability to buy cigarettes is going to be phased out. Right. So is this a problem that really needed to be solved right now, or is this a show of oh well, well Sunak did it. So I’m going to do it more. I’m going to do it double, I’m going to do it quicker. I just don’t really I don’t fully get it. So I’m a bit yeah I’m on the fence.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Yeah I mean one thing that is very, very interesting is when you look at the sheer amount of money to be made from cannabis. Yes. On medicinal cannabis. And actually how, you know, I think the market is 1 billion or 2 billion or something like that. You can imagine a situation where actually there might be quite a lot of economic sense to legalize cannabis. And I just think it would be a brilliant.

 

Coco Khan That would be.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Right wing has been a plot.

 

Coco Khan Twist to Keir Starmer. It was like no, to the cigarettes. Yes.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Two weeks. Exactly.

 

Coco Khan So on the geopolitical front, Foreign Secretary David Lammy has suspended some arms sales to Israel, stating there is a clear risk that the equipment could be used to commit serious breaches of international law. The UK has suspended around 30 of 350 arms sales. Export licenses to supporters of the Palestinian cause is simply not far enough, while those on the right are furious. Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has called the decision shameful, and the white House is set to be let down by the decision. While defense experts say that the UK’s tricky tightrope walk may end up pleasing nobody at all. If you’re interested in more analysis on this from a geopolitical friend, we cannot recommend enough our sister podcast, Pod Save the World. But here domestically, a newly formed alliance of independent pro-Palestine MPs have called the UK’s long standing position on the policy beyond shameful. So this is interesting, right? This new alliance of MPs.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Yeah, it is so obviously led by Jeremy Corbyn. And it’s composed of five independent MPs, which happens to be about the same size as reform. But it’s not as we’re saying, it’s not a political party. So basically it needs a formal agreement. It’s like slight procedural. Thing I need is formal agreement from the Commons speaker to be formalized. He has received a letter, but has not yet confirmed whether or not, they’re going to allow that. Right. And the Alliance won’t receive any short money, which is the funding the opposition parties receive for parliamentary work. But it will have a sort of official presence in the House. And Jeremy Corbyn has extended an invitation from the alliance to other MPs. And obviously there are MPs who also lost the whip from the Labor Party for voting against restoring the two child benefit cap. Including Zarah Sultana and John McDonnell. So there’s a question of the you know, maybe this will pick up momentum, they’ll get a few more, and they could sort of become a official left wing opposition to Keir Starmer.

 

Coco Khan I wonder how the Greens feel about that.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Yeah I mean it’s interesting. I mean, you could potentially imagine a situation where the Greens might kind of join in, or at least maybe not officially or formally, but over particular points of legislation. They could come together. But it’s worth saying labor still have a massive majority, right? So in that sense, it’s going to be very, very difficult unless it really picks up speed on a particular policy issue for them to actually sort of successfully oppose labor.

 

Coco Khan So the Alliance has promised to campaign against the two child benefit cap, the Winter Fuel Payment and arms sales to Israel. Obviously, they’re not a party, so they don’t have a manifesto, but those are some things that they have promised.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I think a lot of people are supportive of abolishing the, teacher benefit cap. I think a lot of people are supportive of, stopping arms being given to Israel. I think a lot of people are supportive of a ceasefire. And I definitely think a lot of people are supportive of, of pensioners retaining their when to feel alone. So you can see that actually there would be a lot of public support for an alliance like this on particular issues. Had the same time, I think one thing the public does want is for governments to be able to create and implement policy. So I think what would be really successful is if you had an alliance that represented on these specific issues, but could also work with the government, you know, to to help move policy in a particular direction or to provide scrutiny, because as much as we talk about Parliament, as, you know, a an amalgamation of opposition parties all fighting with each other and trying to prevent things from happening, actually, they can all work together and provide really valuable scrutiny as well. So, as we know, relations between Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer are pretty frosty. So I’m not I’m not holding out for that. But if the alliance grows, you could imagine a situation where actually they could work together on some things.

 

Coco Khan Now, after the break, we’re going to be getting you up to speed with the conclusion of the Grenfell inquiry. The police tell us they are here to protect us. But what if their original purpose was something else altogether.

 

Zoe Groeneveld From one very crooked media and pushback? Empire city, The Untold Origin Story of the NYPD uncovers the hidden history of one of the largest police forces in the world.

 

Coco Khan Peabody Award winning host tender IQ Monica takes solicitors on a captivating journey through pivotal moments in New York’s past that formed the foundation for today’s policing. From its origins rooted in slavery to rival police gangs battling across the city to the everyday people who resisted every step of the way.

 

Zoe Groeneveld As the debate around policing rages on, Empire City uncovers the truths about where it all began.

 

Coco Khan [AD]

 

Coco Khan Decades of failure and systematic dishonesty with the root causes of the Grenfell Tower disaster. That’s according to the second and final report from the public inquiry into the West London tower block fire on the 14th of June 2017, which killed 72 people wrapped in highly combustible cladding and insulation. The building went up in an inferno during the night while residents were sleeping in a block with no sprinklers, no communal fire alarms and failing fire doors.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Today’s report lays bare the decades of failure that led not just to the Grenfell Tower, but thousands more buildings across the UK being clad in material which experts have compared to solid petrol. And the report comes just a week after a block of flats in Dagenham, east London, was gutted by a fire, while it was reportedly in the process of having its cladding removed. Thankfully there were no casualties that night but over 80 people were evacuated, their homes and all their possessions gone.

 

Coco Khan Grenfell United, a campaign group for victims and their families, released a statement saying the recommendations published today are basic safety principles that should already exist, highlighting how the government’s roles, duties and obligations have been hollowed out by privatization.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Here’s Sir Martin Malbec, chair of the Grenfell inquiry, speaking after the release of the final report. In this clip from Sky news.

 

Clip The simple truth is that the deaths that occurred were all avoidable, and those who lived in the tower were badly failed over a number of years and in a number of different ways, by those who were responsible for ensuring the safety of the building and its occupants.

 

Coco Khan Now we’ve looked at this issue before on Pod Save the UK. Please do go back in our fear to find the episode with Peter Apse, where we explored the depths of the failure here. But to discuss today’s report, we’re joined now by James Riding, chief reporter at Inside Housing, which has followed every step of the inquiry. Thanks for joining us, James.

 

James Riding Pleasure to be here.

 

Coco Khan Okay, so the final report has been seven years in the making. All the evidence has been heard in public. But having read it in full. What has shocked you today, if anything?

 

James Riding Well, you’re right, it’s an absolute beast. It’s about 1700 pages, and the scope it had to cover was enormous compared to the first report, which only looked at the night of the fire itself. This one has had to trace 30 years worth of decisions, shortcomings, failures from all of the public bodies, institutions and actors involved and what led to the catastrophic 2017 fire. So it’s a it’s a total beast. And I think there’s nothing in the conclusions that people who have been following the story and the inquiry over the past few years would be surprised by necessarily nothing that the families would be particularly shocked by. We’ve traced the process of this inquiry, but I think what the inquiry set out to do is to at least try and weigh the failures of each of the actors involved, and I think it does do that. So there’s very strong language for particular actors like the government, the product manufacturers who built the cladding and insulation used on the Grenfell Tower and Grenfell social housing provider as well. And the other thing that the report does is it lists 59 recommendations, mainly around the construction industry, which, if the government chooses to enact them, could have really sweeping changes in the way that we manage our built environment.

 

Zoe Groeneveld This was a disaster decades in the making. We know that documents emerged from the inquiry from 2002, in 2003, warning the then labor government that the UK could become a dumping ground for inferior construction products if it didn’t adopt new, tougher European fire safety standards. It was reported that the UK then did not adopt them due to pressure from industry lobbyists. What did the inquiry conclude about this?

 

James Riding Well, I think it’s clear that that was a very significant error. And one of the reasons why that’s been made so clear is the fact that the new government, which is also a labor government, has tried to get in ahead of the publication of the report, and they’ve come out and said that they are moving to the European fire safety classes for construction products, because for the last few years, we’ve amazingly been having these two regimes running in parallel. And so the fact that the building Safety Minister, Commissioner Ali Khan, came out and said that before the report was even published, suggests that the government really wants to get ahead of this, and this is going to be a huge aspect of the way that the government deals with it now to rectify the situation.

 

Coco Khan You talked earlier about the, the changes that could be implemented and how much that would affect the construction, industry. Obviously, we are in the throes of a new Tory leadership race and as it so happens, I came across James Cleverly talking about some of the things he would do, and he talked about cutting up red tape, talked about regulation. I think he even used, Cameron’s ideology, which was mentioned in Peter Apps book, which is like, you know, for every rule brought in will get rid of two. Do you think that this ideological pursuit of deregulation, cutting red tape has a role? And is that also currently still gripping, building projects despite having seen the tragedy of Grenfell?

 

James Riding I think James Cleverly should take a look at the report’s conclusions, because it does point out a link between the government’s drive for deregulation and the fire, and I think that in particular, it flatly rejects what, Lord pickles, who was previously Housing Secretary said at the inquiry where he claimed that building regulations were exempt from the government’s drive for deregulation. And the inquiry says no, that’s not the case at all. And that it was, something that civil servants were encouraged to look at and to cut back on. And so I think politicians of all stripes need to understand that while companies and businesses will forever, complain about the cumbersome weight of regulations, they might have a point about that combined impact. I think that they’re all in that in place for a reason, and you strip them away at your peril. Absolutely. And, as for whether they’re still in place now, I think things have changed drastically since the original Grenfell report came out. In terms of the combustible cladding products have been banned. However, there’s still a lot more that could be done, and this is where the new recommendations come into play. So one of the things that the report recommends is a single construction regulator take control of the whole industry. It wants an urgent review into the definition of what makes a higher risk building. Currently, that’s only defined by the height of the building. And this, the inquiry wanted to take into account vulnerable residents as well. And it wants, fire safety functions carried out by different government departments at the moment to be brought in under one department. So there are still many, many areas which really need, root and branch reform. And I think the inquiry make some sensible recommendations on that one.

 

Zoe Groeneveld The final report concludes that residents were badly fouled by a number of different organizations. So government’s Kensington and Chelsea council. cladding manufacturers, architects, consultants, the fire brigade certification bodies are the things that the labor government will have to account for. Are there questions, that they will have to respond to? When it comes to kind of wrapping up from from this, or is it kind of mostly something that they can learn from and try and move on from?

 

James Riding I think it will be really interesting to see how the government decides to respond to this report. We’ve already seen they’ve come out and said that they’re going to implement personal emergency evacuation plans for disabled and vulnerable residents in tall buildings, which is a key recommendation from the first report that the previous government decided to reject. So that’s one big change. But another really interesting conclusion and recommendation from the report is that they suggest the government should have a duty to report on its progress for how it implements recommendations from public inquiries. That’s something that, the families and bereaved, from Grenfell have, have called for. And if Starmer and his government want to show that they’re turning a new leaf and responding in a way that’s really robust to this report, what they, they might consider bringing into, into place some sort of mechanism like this, where there’s a publicly accessible record showing where the government has taken steps to act on these recommendations and explaining why they’re not if if they choose not to.

 

Coco Khan And what about criminal ramifications for some of the actors, involved in this?

 

James Riding Yeah, that’s the other really big next question. So it’s not the job of an inquiry to determine criminal culpability, but I think they set up here with some quite damning language to various failures. And to what extent if these failures were avoided? Yeah. Could the tragedy have been avoided? And so it’s now up to the Metropolitan Police, who have been conducting an incredibly long and detailed investigation of same time as this inquiry to take these findings on board. They’ve said it’s already going to take them about 12 to 18 months to digest this report and compare it with their own investigation. After that, they’re then going to put their evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service, who will potentially then press charges. And so as a result, it’s going to. To be a full ten years since the fire. So 2027 before anyone appears in court for this.

 

Coco Khan My goodness me. You know, I remember when we, interviewed Peter Apps. You know, one of the things he pointed out was that the the story of Grenfell really lays bare the inequalities in society and whose lives matter more, who has more power, who has more influence? You know, so Lesley Thomas KC, representing the survivors and, victims families, made the point that while Kensington and Chelsea is one of the smallest and richest boroughs, Grenfell residents were overwhelmingly working class. He said the fire was inextricably linked with race. I’m just wondering, what did the report say? That I suppose it doesn’t go so far as to use the word racist or institutional racism.

 

James Riding It doesn’t, but it does devote several paragraphs to addressing these concerns. And they’re very interesting. They’re worth considering. So what the report does say is that in the aftermath of the fire, the residents were absolutely subject to a significant degree of discrimination. For example, some Muslim residents who are observing Ramadan at a time that needs were not taken into account by the council and the council should have done more to cater for their needs. However, the report then also says that it didn’t find any evidence for the fact that any of these decisions that resulted in the dangerous building or the spread of fire were affected by racial or social prejudice. And that is very interesting. It goes out of its way to say that in kind of that the inquiry have put their neck on the line. They’re saying that they haven’t found any evidence for racial or social prejudice that led to the fire itself. So I think it’s worth reflecting on that. And perhaps that does lend, weight to some of the other findings. If they are genuinely saying we think we’ve seen all the evidence, and on the basis of this, we don’t have evidence for, for racial or social prejudice.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Obviously, after Grenfell occurred, it emerged that there were thousands more tower blocks across the UK covered in combustible cladding. Latest figures from the Department of Housing shows there are 4630 buildings identified, but remediation work has only begun in about half of those. While campaigners and our cladding scandal say 3 million people could be living in unsaleable and uninsurable flats, what’s next for them? Does this inquiry put more pressure, on their plight? Or, you know, is there any sense that the government will better advocate for those people? What what can we learn from this?

 

James Riding I think the government has talked about taking a much more proactive approach to cladding remediation, and part of this has been in response to the fire in Dagenham late last month, which was on a building that was undergoing cladding remediation when it caught fire. So Angela Rayner, who the housing secretary, she has talked about the need to speed up cladding remediation and get more of these buildings fixed and it remains to be seen, but the government could certainly take a more hands on approach, in resolving some of these disputes that are going on between building owners, between management companies, between leaseholders. There’s definitely more scope for that. But at the moment, people are pressing on and, and as you say, the figures keep going up. So the government keeps identifying more buildings which are potentially at risk. But at the moment, about half of the housing blocks with unsafe cladding that are high rises have not yet started remediation. So there’s still 2331 of these high rises where no remediation plan has begun yet. So there’s a huge amount of work to be done.

 

Coco Khan James writing, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

 

James Riding Thank you very much.

 

[AD]

 

Coco Khan Now the Tory leadership race is in full swing, with leadership hopefuls launching their bids this week and the first elimination due after we record this afternoon. But according to a new poll from YouGov, most of the new Tory leadership hopefuls aren’t very well known, with one significant outlier. Priti Patel she’s far better known than any of the other candidates, with 82% of those polled. So knowing her name but perhaps for the wrong reason.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Yes. So, 65% of people polled viewed her in an unfavorable light, while only 16%, saw her favorably. The second best known candidate, obviously, James Cleverly known by just over half of those polled. And then obviously we’ve got Kemi Badenoch, Robert Jenrick, Tom Tugendhat and if anyone remembers this guy Mel Stride, he used to get trotted out in the morning media round all the time when the rest of the Tories were falling out of love with Rishi Sunak.

 

Coco Khan So the polling organization, more in Common have, done some polling. That kind of backs up what you what you said that voters essentially think that the conservatives are weird.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Yes. I’m finally, you know, a bit of polling we can all get on board with. I mean, they aren’t they are weird. And there’s been a lot of weird stuff going on, in the leadership race. I mean, when you consider the fact that, you know, the Tories basically had electoral wipeout and rather than really doing some proper kind of navel gazing and thinking about what policies they stand for, it’s just more of the same. It’s just continuity. They’re arguing about the exile. They’re arguing about identity politics. Kemi Badenoch is having an argument with Doctor Who, which she launched her leadership campaign with a video where she said she’s not afraid of standing up to Doctor Who.

 

Coco Khan Okay, I think I need more information. What do you mean?

 

Zoe Groeneveld So you might remember earlier this year that Kemi Badenoch and David Tennant, who played the doctor, had a bit of beef because, he stood up at an awards event and said he wants Kemi Badenoch to shut up.

 

Coco Khan Right.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Because of the way she talks about trans people. She manufactured outrage. Kemi Badenoch was very, very angry about this. And she has kicked off her leadership campaign saying she’s not afraid to stand up to Doctor Who. Yeah. So getting a bit, so getting a bit straight, getting.

 

Coco Khan A bit weird, isn’t it. So do you think I mean, surely the logical steps for them to just get a total nobody and, like, wipe that slate clean. No. How come you’re not doing that?

 

Zoe Groeneveld Well, they don’t really have anyone because the party was so depleted. You know, there’s a lot of, there are an awful lot of new conservative faces that not an awful lot of talent there. Everyone’s kind of tired. And I think the question, you know, that there are a lot of these Tory leadership candidates will be asking is, are they ever likely to be prime minister? Really, I mean, it’s it’s quite likely that the conservatives will be out of power for a decade. And knowing how divided the party is, even if you did become leader, you could be booted out again in two years time. Yeah. So, no, there isn’t a lot of talent, and I think you’d have to be slightly deranged to want to be Tory leader. One of my favorite, actually, parts of the conservative leadership race is the weird briefings on Who’s on Ice and pick and who isn’t on his MPs. Okay. So you might remember when Robert Jenrick resigned from the government when he was Rishi Sunak’s immigration minister over the Rwanda plan. He was looking a little bit trimmer. He had a new haircut, okay? And everyone was like he wants to be Tory leader. And his team denied it and they were like, this is really cruel and unkind. Like he’s just taking care of himself and he’s allowed a new haircut. And obviously he did want to be Tory leader. Tom Tugendhat made a comment at one of his speeches saying basically, I’m not honest and pick unlike some people. And then Robert Jenrick had to come out and say, okay, yes, I did take those MP but I didn’t enjoy it or something.

 

Coco Khan So just for, clarity for any of our listeners who are not familiar with what as MP’s, as MP is a weight loss drug, it’s traditionally prescribed on the NHS for people who are struggling to lose weight and who also have, other comorbidities. That would make, a significant amount of holding weight, dangerous for them. However, you can get it privately. There’s been a run on as MP online. And so it’s good to see that many of those buyers are conservative MPs. That’s good to know.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I think it all started when Boris Johnson wrote his Daily Mail article about taking his MPs and not agreeing with him.

 

Coco Khan Okay.

 

Zoe Groeneveld And he made it okay for people to come out and say I’ve had them because, well, it’s just a very strange twist and turn in the Tory leadership race, I think.

 

Coco Khan Yeah. I keep coming back to that thought of I’ve done as MP, but I didn’t enjoy it. Is it some sort of now I’m actually very hard. Is it on? So tough.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I think there’s a feeling that taking those MPs is in some way cheating. So like, I think Jenrick point might have been like, okay, maybe I did try as MP but this. Weight loss is all me. You know, this is. I got it in me. I can lose weight. I could be Tory leader. I can exercise and work out and, you know, eat healthy.

 

Coco Khan Goodness me. So as we record on Wednesday morning, we don’t know who will be the first candidate to be knocked out. But let’s take a moment of sympathy for Keir Starmer, whose top team apparently forgot to wish him a happy birthday this week. They could have made him a somber cake, apparently, his daughters remembered they went to pick up a Siberian kitten from a local cat shelter to join Larry at number ten. It remains to be seen what color it is, we would imagine. Probably gray. I find the story strange. I find it weird that it’s in circulation. Did did Starmers team brief this out?

 

Zoe Groeneveld Yeah, it’s a good question, I think. I think possibly. Okay, so I’ve heard.

 

Coco Khan Okay. Yeah.

 

Zoe Groeneveld While we’re on the topic of Starmer’s pets, his its children wanted a puppy, and Starmer negotiated them down to a cat, which is a very Starmer thing to do, right? I mean, I love cats, I’m not going to get cats, but they’re not the same as a puppy, you know? But can you imagine having a puppy in number ten? I just think a bit too much stress, right? Yeah. So. So, yeah. No, new cam.

 

Coco Khan I mean, if this story has been briefed out, I think they should have led with. They wanted a puppy and he negotiated them down, which I think is a they start off hopeful. Get what you give it. I think this speaks to a wider philosophy. Starmer has also ordered a redecoration of number ten, leading to the removal of a portrait of Margaret Thatcher from the Iron Lady’s former study, which, according to his official biographer, the PM found unsettling. Right wing media has been whipped up into an outrage about this. I mean, what are you thinking, Debbie?

 

Zoe Groeneveld I think the right wing media goes absolutely feral every time somebody mentions Margaret Thatcher in a way that’s like, just like like, get over it now. Like. And it also shows you just how much the Conservative Party has just been like on a downward spiral for so long because they, they don’t have anything except Margaret Thatcher to talk about anymore. And they all go back to, you know, there’s no there’s no vision tying the Conservative Party together. What I really think, though, is that if Keir Starmer wants to send the right wing press his head spinning, he should name his new cat Margaret Thatcher. What? Oh, Maggie. Just call her Maggie.

 

Coco Khan Wow. Yeah. I don’t know what that would do to.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I think they’d they’d hate that. They’d. You know, and maybe that maybe the left would hate it as well. But I think it would be quite. I think it’d be quite provocative.

 

Coco Khan Scratcher. Yeah. There we go. I just came up with.

 

Zoe Groeneveld That.

 

Coco Khan Scratch scratcher. Really? Sorry. Sorry I interrupted you. It just came to me in a moment of genius.

 

Zoe Groeneveld But, yeah, I mean, I think it definitely breathed out deliberately. Definitely a bit provocative. You know, fair play. I pull it down, I throw in the bin, throw in the bin, it’s right, right in the bin.

 

Coco Khan Okay, cool. So that is some of your bookings gone. I just hope you know that. So I’m finally to close the show. I have a retraction to make. So listeners to our episodes recorded at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival may recall that we had a brief conversation about the Baha men’s seminal song, Who Let the Dogs Out? You’re familiar with it, right?

 

Zoe Groeneveld So yeah, I did a song. What did what did you do? What did you do? Coco.

 

Coco Khan Iconic song. Basically, we were having a chat about like, oh, you know, when you’re a kid, you thought it was about dogs. And then I mentioned in. Yeah. And then I found out. Oh, so annoying because I wanted it to be about dogs. That is actually slightly sexist. It’s, it refers to unattractive women being in a in a in a place who let these unattractive women in there who let these dogs out? Certainly. That’s what I thought anyway. And then I was, promptly corrected. That is not what the song is about.

 

Zoe Groeneveld I thought that’s what the song was about as well.

 

Coco Khan And I think, I think the reason we think that is because nasty men have been saying that phrase who let the dogs out. And so we thought maybe that’s what the song was about because of these, this, this, this being a sort of street insult, but in fact, the song is actually the other way around. It’s from it’s told from the perspective of women at a party where some rowdy, rude and like unpleasant men come in and ruin the party and they are the ones saying, who let the dogs out? So all along it was actually, you know, maybe even a feminist track that got hijacked. And there I was participating in this misinformation. So I do want to issue a retraction, not least because, you know, the Bahamians biggest song, I’m sure they wouldn’t like to be misrepresented. But also, any man who sings that song in a derogatory way, you are wrong. And I want all of us to know.

 

Zoe Groeneveld And you’re desecrating the memory of the Bahamas. I’m really disappointed. I thought you were going to tell me. It actually is about dogs.

 

Coco Khan So come on, Zoe. Well come on.

 

Zoe Groeneveld It felt like that story was good.

 

Coco Khan I was a whole song about dogs. That’s okay. That’s nice. And that’s it. Thank you for listening to Pod Save the UK. And thank you, Zoe Gruner.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Thank you for having me.

 

Coco Khan I appreciate it. We want to hear your thoughts as well listeners. So please email us at PSUK@ReducedListening.Co.Uk or drop us a voice note on WhatsApp. Our number is 07494 933444. Internationally that’s +44 7494 933344.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Don’t forget to follow us Pod Save the UK on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. And if you want more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

 

Coco Khan Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Thanks to senior producer James Tyndall and digital producer Alex Bishop.

 

Coco Khan Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

 

Zoe Groeneveld Thanks to our engineer James Reynolds.

 

Coco Khan The executive producers are Anushka Sharma, Tania Hinds, Dan Jackson and Madeline Herringer. With additional support from Ari Schwartz.

 

Zoe Groeneveld And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

 

[AD]