2024 is on track to be the hottest year on record, beating out the current #1…2023. In a world where extreme heat is becoming the norm and more and more people are living in cities, are urban areas literally and figuratively cooked? To get a sense of the unique climate threats facing cities and what mayors are doing about it, Max and Erin take a closer look at Boston, Phoenix, and Hoboken. Can soapy roads address the urban heat island effect? Where’s the best place to hide a stormwater cistern? Where does environmental justice fit into all of this? Listen to this week’s How We Got Here to find out.

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

Max Fisher: Erin, one of those brutal summer heat waves is descending on the Midwest and the Great Lakes region again. 

 

Erin Ryan: It seems like there’s always a record setting heat wave somewhere in the US. 

 

Max Fisher: Yeah, 2024 is on track to be the hottest year on record, beating out the current number one, 2023. 

 

Erin Ryan: Wow. Climate’s out here shattering records like Katie Ledecky. 

 

Max Fisher: [laugh] With that in mind, and with the air conditioner on full blast, that makes me want to ask.

 

Erin Ryan: Hot enough for you?

 

Max Fisher: No. But close. It’s this, in a world where extreme heat is becoming the norm, are cities literally and figuratively cooked? [music break] I’m Max Fisher. 

 

Erin Ryan: I’m Erin Ryan, and this is How We Got Here, a series where we explore a big question behind the week’s headlines and tell a story that answers that question. 

 

[clip of ABC7 news reporter] Today is expected to be even hotter than yesterday. With a heat index well into the triple digits. Downtown commuters shuffled down sizzling sidewalks yesterday. Baseball fans arrived for the White Sox game with fluids in hand. On the first day of the CPS school year, outdoor activities were moved indoors. 

 

Erin Ryan: That was a clip from ABC7 Chicago discussing this week’s heatwave in the Windy City. Max, I lived in Chicago for most of my 20’s and I am sweating just trying to imagine how, like a treeless stretch of Milwaukee Ave. would feel in triple digit temperatures. I cannot imagine, like breaking down along the Dan Ryan. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh yeah. 

 

Erin Ryan: Ugh. God. 

 

Max Fisher: I listen, I lived in Washington DC for years, so in the summers it just is like you don’t go outside for five hours in the middle of the day, and cities like in general are extra miserable during heat waves. Beyond being uncomfortable places to live and work, that heat can be deadly. High temperatures are responsible for more deaths than wildfires, storms, and floods combined every year. And so our question this week, as temperatures rise, how are cities trying to beat the heat? And is any of it working? 

 

Erin Ryan: To find the answer, let’s take a look at a few places that are giving it their best shot. 

 

Max Fisher: The old college try if you will. 

 

Erin Ryan: Funny you should mention college, as the first place we’re going to look is famously a college town, and that town’s new mayor is positively obsessed with talking about the effects of rising heat from climate change. 

 

Max Fisher: Ooh, can I guess? Let’s see. Blue city, college town, hot climate. I’m going to say Austin, maybe Atlanta?

 

Erin Ryan: No. Boston.  

 

Max Fisher: Wait, Boston?

 

Erin Ryan: Yes. Mayor Michelle Wu has made heat resilience an issue since she first came into office in 2021. 

 

Max Fisher: But Erin, isn’t it cold in New England? 

 

Erin Ryan: It’s not like it used to be, and definitely not in the summer. According to a report the city put out a few months after Wu came into office, by the year 2050, Boston summers are projected to be as hot as summers are currently in Washington, DC. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh my God. I mean, as mentioned, I lived through a bunch of those and they are brutal. 

 

Erin Ryan: Even if the world aggressively reduces greenhouse gas emissions. By 2070, Boston will endure 40 days per year where the temperature crosses 90 degrees. If the world doesn’t reduce emissions, it could hit 90 plus degrees for 60 days each year. 

 

Max Fisher: Wait in Boston? How is that possible? 

 

Erin Ryan: So the effects of climate change are exacerbated in Boston because it’s a city. All that asphalt and pavement and dark roofs absorb heat during the day, which means the city can’t cool overnight. Tall buildings also create a canyon effect that traps heat inside. This is called the urban heat island effect. 

 

Max Fisher: Mm. So I used to live in London, which has a vaguely Boston like climate, and something I learned is that historically cool cities like that are hit especially hard by rising temperatures from climate change, because they’re just not built for long, hot summers. The buildings are all designed to hold in heat, not release it. There’s not enough air conditioning, so a heat wave can be exceptionally dangerous in someplace like that. 

 

Erin Ryan: Well, that’s why when Wu’s office put out Boston’s first heat resilience plan in 2022, a lot of it focused on mitigating the health impact of hotter and longer summers. 

 

Max Fisher: Okay, like what?

 

Erin Ryan: A lot of things that might feel obvious but weren’t going to happen without a concerted plan. More drinking fountains in areas with high heat exposure, installing shade shelters over bus stops, and at schools. I can’t believe that they didn’t– 

 

Max Fisher: I know. 

 

Erin Ryan: –exist. 

 

Max Fisher: That someone had to make that decision. 

 

Erin Ryan: All those gingers in Boston and there’s no shelters over–

 

Max Fisher: [laugh] Withering. 

 

Erin Ryan: –the bus stops? People are freckling as we speak. And on routes where people commute on foot, they call those cool pathways. But Mayor Wu has said that there’s a low tech solution her office has found especially effective. Trees. Here she is a few months ago, talking with Massachusetts Senator Ed Markey for his podcast. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] The best climate change fighting technology we have is trees. It brings the temperature down, they holds the water in the ground. It creates peace and tranquility and beauty. But what’s important for me about the Green New Deal is that it’s not just the vision for what our future has to be one day in order to address all the needs that we have. It’s about all of the jobs and opportunities that come from getting the process right, of getting to that future. And so whether it’s with the school busses or with this trees investment, we’ve also been able to use those resources and build the workforce that’s going to have those jobs. We have Madison Park Vocational Technical School, high school students now managing and servicing the electric school busses for Boston. And we have the staffing through our Power Corps program, um that is that trains young people in the green economy to help manage all of the work that’s going to happen to actually get these trees planted. 

 

[clip of Senator Ed Markey] Right. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] In the right places.

 

Max Fisher: I feel like that part she’s talking about at the end about  jobs is something that we hear a lot with city climate plans, and partly I’m sure that’s because mayors love to talk about creating jobs, but also so that there is a near-term economic incentive for everyone to keep these programs going, rather than seeing them as a climate extravagance that might get cut in the next budget. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, and a lot of these jobs are jobs that could be filled by people who maybe aren’t working in factories anymore because their factory closed. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh right. 

 

Erin Ryan: They are manual labor jobs that require physical strength. And uh, they would benefit people who might be a little bit skeptical of climate change. 

 

Max Fisher: Right. And now here’s something in it for them. 

 

Erin Ryan: Exactly. And because the number of programs in Boston’s heat plan are going to take years to come fully into effect. 

 

Max Fisher: Like what? 

 

Erin Ryan: So an immediate benefit–

 

Max Fisher: Right. 

 

Erin Ryan: –is necessary. So energy efficiency upgrades for one. Uh. Ever tried to do anything to a house? 

 

Max Fisher: It’s a lot. It takes a long time. 

 

Erin Ryan: It takes twice as long as you think that it will. Or things like financial incentives for buildings to replace existing black roofs, which absorb and hold heat with more reflective white roofs. Or better yet, with green roofs, meaning covered in plants partially or fully, that insulate from heat and can absorb rainwater to prevent flooding. 

 

Max Fisher: Infrastructure like that, I’m sure, takes years to turn over. 

 

Erin Ryan: There’s another big, big focus of Boston’s climate plan that we should talk about, and that is environmental justice. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh, yeah, as in mitigating the ways in which things like racial wealth gaps or the legacy of redlining puts some communities at greater risk from, say, heat waves. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, redlining especially is a big one. 

 

Max Fisher: This is the practice by which mortgage lenders refuse to give out loans to people in predominantly nonwhite neighborhoods, which depress development in those communities for generations. 

 

Erin Ryan: And that manifests today in, among other things, higher temperatures in the summer because there are fewer parks and trees, but more asphalt and concrete. One study found that Boston neighborhoods that had been redlined back in the 1930s are today, almost 100 years later, on average eight degrees hotter than surrounding neighborhoods. 

 

Max Fisher: Eight degrees! That is a life changing amount. 

 

Erin Ryan: Especially if you happen to suffer from chronic health issues, which are of course, also more prevalent in historically disadvantaged neighborhoods. 

 

Max Fisher: But you’re saying that Boston’s heat plan is supposed to deal with this? 

 

Erin Ryan: That’s the idea anyway. Here’s the mayor again, Michelle Wu on Senator Markey’s podcast. 

 

[clip of Senator Ed Markey] What you are doing is you’re now the national leader in making sure that the city of Boston rectifies these historic injustices that affected those who were most vulnerable historically. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] The difference that it makes, not only for wildlife to flourish, for all the ways that the water in that river seeps into the ground and affects other life systems. But just to have fun, to be able to let kids go and get their feet wet and and have fun. We want to create those opportunities with all of the open spaces that we have. Some of the funding that you helped deliver for us, for Moakley park and its uh renovation means not only that we will have improvements to a beautiful park right on the water, but that is one of the main flood paths over into the public housing development right across the street from there. And so it’s always about trying to make sure we are addressing the things that need to be fixed, but also in the meantime and through that, delivering and making the the opportunities and experiences of residents even better. 

 

Erin Ryan: Something else Michelle Wu has done that I thought was smart, was presenting all this heat resiliency as a public health issue that affects everyone today. Here she is with Markey again. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] Sometimes people say, you know, we can’t afford to do this, right. We can’t afford all the money it’s going to take to remediate this–. 

 

[clip of Senator Ed Markey] Yeah. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] Waterway or to transition into a healthier building. But all of the costs that we are saving down the line by taking action now far, far outweighs whatever we’re talking about. All of the opportunities that are created now on the river because of the regulatory systems, because of the investments that were made, are now returning so much of that investment. 

 

[clip of Senator Ed Markey] And we saw during the Covid crisis that those that were in the worst housing are those that had the least access to health care. They also had the highest levels of asthma. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] That’s right. 

 

[clip of Senator Ed Markey] And then that made them very vulnerable. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] That’s right. 

 

[clip of Senator Ed Markey] To another lung disease, which was arriving, Covid. 

 

[clip of Boston Mayor Michelle Wu] Mm hmm. 

 

[clip of Senator Ed Markey] And so that’s why we then saw the highest rates amongst Black, Brown, immigrant communities. 

 

Erin Ryan: We should talk about another city that’s been trying out a big heat resilience plan. It’s actually one you are pretty familiar with, Max. Phoenix. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh, my sort of hometown. I grew up partly in Phoenix and it was hot as hell back in the ’90s, so I can’t imagine what it’s like now. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, Max only lives in places with terrible summers. That’s his one rule. 

 

Max Fisher: [laughing] I try not deliberately. 

 

Erin Ryan: Well, it’s hotter now. Phoenix typically sees more than 100 days every year that are over 100 degrees. Last summer, according to one estimate, 645 people died from heat related causes. 

 

Max Fisher: Wow. 

 

Erin Ryan: Half of those came during a particularly bad two week heat wave. So it’s pretty serious. 

 

Max Fisher: And I know as the city has developed and sprawled, the heat island effect has gotten worse. And the natural cooling you usually get at night in the desert has also been blunted with all those concrete structures turning into heat sinks. 

 

Erin Ryan: Here’s Kate Gallego, the Democratic mayor of Phoenix, talking about some of the heat resilience reforms she put into place. This is from a 2021 interview with a climate project at George Washington University called Planet Forward. 

 

[clip of unnamed speaker from George Washington University] This cool pavement project that you’re trying, what is it and and how much of a difference would it make? 

 

[clip of Phoenix Mayor Kate Gallego] We used to see, uh much more significant declines in temperatures overnight, but pavement and manmade materials are really holding in that heat. We’re now paving the city with cool pavement and then monitoring the impacts on our community. And we’ve seen a significant, noticeable decline in the temperatures, particularly those critical overnight temperatures in the areas where we’ve applied the cool pavement. 

 

[clip of unnamed speaker from George Washington University] What is it made out of? What does it look like, and how much of a temperature difference does it actually make? 

 

[clip of Phoenix Mayor Kate Gallego] So it’s made with asphalt, water, an emulsifying agent that might be more familiar to some of the components of soap, um some minerals. Our scientific partners tell us we may be able to see a reduction of 10 to 15 degrees, which will make it the most popular addition to a neighborhood in Phoenix. 

 

Max Fisher: Soap roads. It’s amazing how low tech a lot of these plans are. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, Phoenix, like Boston, is also putting a lot of resources into one, planting trees and two, extending shade over things like bus stops or heavily used sidewalks. 

 

Max Fisher: Yeah, it doesn’t get much lower tech than human stand under tree. 

 

Erin Ryan: Look. Sometimes the old ways work, but Phoenix is trying out some new ways too. Here’s Mayor Kate Gallego talking about the city’s project of installing solar panels in places where they can double as shade. 

 

[clip of Phoenix Mayor Kate Gallego] My first involvement with the city was as a volunteer on our Environmental Quality Commission, trying to develop a solar energy program for the city. It’s now grown to the point where we’re number one in terms of U.S. cities for solar installed on our city facilities. We’re about to cut the ribbon on our 50th installation. We are doing it strategically, and one that I hope will become a national model is our partnership with our public housing authority. We are putting solar shade canopies over parking at the housing authority that creates more comfortable, shaded areas, but it’s also giving our residents a $15 credit on the bill. So they’re sharing in the benefits of the electricity that is generated at their home community. 

 

Erin Ryan: Environmental injustice, which we talked about before, a huge problem in Phoenix as well. A few years ago, The Washington Post reported on one historically disadvantaged neighborhood called Edison Eastlake, where temperatures are as much as ten degrees higher at night than in surrounding neighborhoods. 

 

Max Fisher: Wow. I assume this is, as in so many similar neighborhoods in so many cities, Edison Eastlake has fewer trees, fewer parks, more asphalt, more concrete, and less shade. 

 

Erin Ryan: It also has higher rates of chronic illness, all of which adds up to a mortality rate from heat related causes that is 20 times higher than the rest of the county. 

 

Max Fisher: Wow. 20 times. And I’m sure that’s a gap that is only going to widen as Phoenix continues to heat up. 

 

Erin Ryan: Which is why Phoenix’s climate plan calls for repaving Edison Eastlake with those cool sidewalk materials we heard about earlier, plus installing shade shelters and you guessed it, planting more trees. 

 

Max Fisher: Trees. 

 

Erin Ryan: The plan is to eventually have 25% of the city under some sort of tree canopy. 

 

Max Fisher: I can’t believe we’ve gotten this far into an episode on heat resilience and haven’t used the word evapotranspiration yet. Great word. 

 

Erin Ryan: You’re always saying that word. It sounds like a whiz bang gadget from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. 

 

Max Fisher: It’s even more amazing than that, actually. It’s just a thing that plants do. Plants absorb water from the ground, then naturally release that water back into the air as gas. And that process uses heat as energy, which is to say that it pulls heat out of the air and thereby makes the air cooler. 

 

Erin Ryan: Even desert plants. 

 

Max Fisher: Right. That desert sage and aloe vera and saguaro cacti you know, from Wile E. Coyote cartoons, it might be associated in your mind with withering desert heat, but they’re actually tiny little refrigerators cooling the desert air 24/7. Isn’t that cool? 

 

Erin Ryan: Oh cool. Next time I’m in the desert and I’m really hot, I will hug a cactus. 

 

Max Fisher: Hug a cactus. That’s right. 

 

Erin Ryan: Phoenix’s plan also deals more than other cities plans with the dangers of heat waves, which can bring down power grids at the exact moment when people are already most at risk. Here’s Mayor Kate Gallego again, talking about this last year on the CBS news show, Face the Nation. 

 

[clip of Phoenix Mayor Kate Gallego] We have mobile cooling units that can go to an emergency site, like a fire, where firefighters can go inside and cool down while they’re fighting a tough blaze. Residents have also used those. Sometimes when there’s an intense fire, the electricity needs to go down for safety. If wires are down and our residents can go into those mobile cooling units, we even have tactics where we can go out with IVs that have been cooled and that can cool people from the inside, which can save lives. 

 

Erin Ryan: Okay, I’m putting my hands on my face in horror. First of all, I am very needle phobic, but I just had a baby and they put needles in you all the time when you’re like, pregnant–

 

Max Fisher: Sure. 

 

Erin Ryan: –and stuff. 

 

Max Fisher: Sure. 

 

Erin Ryan: And they give you an IV at the hospital and it always feels cold. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh. 

 

Erin Ryan: I cannot imagine, and it is so–

 

Max Fisher: Yeah. 

 

Erin Ryan: –unsettling. I hate that feeling. 

 

Max Fisher: The idea of an artificial thing that is injecting you with coldness. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah. And your arm gets cold and you feel like you’re about to transform into, like, Jack Frost or something. But you know what? You got to do what works and if that works. 

 

Max Fisher: I mean. Listen. Get ready for the climate resilience era. Hearing about Phoenix wiring people up with cold IVs, like it’s engine coolant, really drives home that like, this is what we’re getting into as a species. [music break]

 

[AD BREAK] 

 

Erin Ryan: And now for climate adaptation city number three, beautiful Hoboken, New Jersey. 

 

Max Fisher: Wait. Hoboken? The place your train goes through on the way to New York? 

 

Erin Ryan: We are going to get some angry emails from people in Hoboken. 

 

Max Fisher: I’m so sorry Hoboken. 

 

Erin Ryan: Hoboken is actually kind of nice. 

 

Max Fisher: No, it’s cool. It’s nice. I’m sorry.

 

Erin Ryan: A climate, a climate adap– I’m like, really mean about D.C., and Phoenix. But I’m like, hey. 

 

Max Fisher: Stand up for the ‘Boken. 

 

Erin Ryan: A climate adaptation leader, but not for coping with too much heat. No, Hoboken’s success is in coping with too much water. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh yeah, this must be a Hurricane Sandy thing. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, the storm that left much of New York underwater and without power in 2012. Here’s a report by the news outlet NJ Spotlight on how seven years later, Democratic Governor Phil Murphy started making preparations for the next big one. 

 

[clip of unnamed reporter from NJ Spotlight] Seven years ago, the city of Hoboken was 80% underwater. Today, it’s host to an innovative plan to mitigate storm surges. Governor Murphy chose this town to commemorate the anniversary of Superstorm Sandy. He signed an executive order here this morning, creating a chief resilience officer position in state government. 

 

[clip of NJ Governor Phil Murphy] New Jersey is ground zero for the negative impacts of climate change, and Bew Jersey cannot be content with anything less than being a national, if not global, leader in resilience and pushing back against the reality of climate change. 

 

Max Fisher: God, I love New Jersey, a state that just produces like great New Jersey guys. 

 

Erin Ryan: Absolutely. It’s their main export is incredible New–

 

Max Fisher: New Jersey guys. 

 

Erin Ryan: –Jersey guys. Hoboken is instructive for coastal cities around the world, which are going to have to find a way to deal with rising sea levels. Hoboken is also mostly situated in a floodplain, which puts it at risk of flooding during heavy rains too. 

 

Max Fisher: Heavy rains, of course, being a major feature of climate change and that the heating climate creates many more extreme weather events, which is especially dangerous in areas like the US Mid-Atlantic that already face heavy summer storms. 

 

Erin Ryan: Hoboken is an interesting test case because it collected $230 million in state and federal grants toward making the city something of a model in storm and flood resilience. Here’s another report from yes, NJ Spotlight, on some of what the city has done. I got to subscribe to this podcast. 

 

Max Fisher: NJ Spotlight is great. 

 

Erin Ryan: It is fantastic. Solid. The second person you hear in this clip is Hoboken’s Chief Resiliency Officer, Caleb Stratton. 

 

[clip of unnamed reporter from NJ Spotlight 2] The saying goes, if two people cry in Hoboken, the streets flood. So they designed parks around the city meant to capture excess rain and flood waters. 

 

[clip of Caleb Stratton] So the concept is to create storage capacity underground, essentially expanding the capacity of our sewer system. The block behind us. It’s basically the size of a city block with massive underground storage, which is a cistern. And then the building behind me is the pump station. So allowing water to collect underground in the cistern and then being pumped out to the Hudson River, we’re trying to replicate natural system conveyance, which would be, you know, if there wasn’t all these buildings here, there would be streams or marshes or a floodplain for water to basically flow to. So that’s kind of what you, would be below ground. And then on the surface, it’s not asphalt, it’s a permeable surface, rain gardens, grass, anything that has an ecological benefit. 

 

Max Fisher: That’s cool. Big block sized parks that drain into underwater cisterns. But is that really enough though? 

 

Erin Ryan: It’s not all that Hoboken is doing. In addition to telling people that they cannot cry. [laughter] Nobody is allowed to cry in Hoboken, just–

 

Max Fisher: It’s a good city ordinance. 

 

Erin Ryan: Just to–

 

Max Fisher: Honestly, I support that. 

 

Erin Ryan: Just to be on the safe side. No cry babies in Hoboken. They’ve also redesigned major intersections to collect and redirect rainwater so that water doesn’t end up pooling in someone’s school or apartment building instead. And they’ve redesigned their sewer system to drain away more water in a flood or major storm. 

 

Max Fisher: So, Erin, I remember that about a year ago there was a huge rainstorm in New York, almost ten inches in some areas. Lots of flooding, subways shut down, highways closed. Basically, the city stopped operating and it ultimately caused $100 million in damage. How did Hoboken do during all that? 

 

Erin Ryan: According to a New York Times report, the sum total of damage for Hoboken was that six cars had to get towed. 

 

Max Fisher: Whoa. 

 

Erin Ryan: And three of the city’s 277 intersections briefly saw some standing water. A scheduled arts festival went ahead that very weekend like nothing had even happened. 

 

Max Fisher: That’s pretty cool. 

 

Erin Ryan: I know we usually associate climate resilience with heat, but flooding prevention is a big one, and not just in Hoboken. Pittsburgh has taken some similar measures. Durban, which is a big city in South Africa, did their own version of the Hoboken Plan recently by restoring long bulldozed wetlands on the city’s outskirts. 

 

Max Fisher: Oh, so like a natural version of those parks they built in Hoboken to drain into cisterns? 

 

Erin Ryan: Right. The wetlands naturally soak up huge amounts of water during heavy rains, which in theory, spares the city from getting flooded. Plus, they’re nice to look at. 

 

Max Fisher: They are, and it’s amazing how often the solution to all of the problems we’ve created by obliterating our natural environment is just to put back the natural environment. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, there’s maybe a lesson in there somewhere. 

 

Max Fisher: Okay Erin. What other cool ideas did you encounter? 

 

Erin Ryan: Oh, so many. A team in Athens launched an app called Extrema Global that, but in Greek it would probably be like [mumbles incoherently]. [laughter] That overlays, I can say it because I studied there in college. Okay. It’s fine. 

 

Max Fisher: Was that was that actual Greek or was that gibberish? 

 

Erin Ryan: Well. No, [speaking in Greek] is thank you in Greek. 

 

Max Fisher: Okay. 

 

Erin Ryan: But, yeah. 

 

Max Fisher: That’s pretty good Greek. 

 

Erin Ryan: Thank you. It’s one of the only things I can say in addition to [speaking in Greek]. 

 

Max Fisher: What’s that mean? 

 

Erin Ryan: Which is like, I don’t understand Greek. [laughter] Extrema Global, that overlays a map of the city with heat refuges like parks and air conditioned public buildings. It also tracks heat risk. And it’ll even give you directions from one place to another, routed to minimize heat exposure. 

 

Max Fisher: But it’s just in Athens? 

 

Erin Ryan: Also in Paris, Milan, and Rotterdam. Melbourne, the city in Australia, has a similar app, as does Barcelona. 

 

Max Fisher: I have also used air quality apps in various cities. They’re great, but it’s definitely a reminder of how inhospitable our world can be nowadays, though I don’t know, at least we have smartphone apps to navigate it I guess? 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, and I gotta say, if you’re in Athens and you don’t like live in Greece and you want to visit the Parthenon, you can’t avoid how hot it is. Around–

 

Max Fisher: It’s going to be hot. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah. 

 

Max Fisher: Sure. 

 

Erin Ryan: That’s just how. Okay, well thank you map, you told me I’m, it’s going to be hot. [laughter] There are also some programs in developing countries that offer what are called micro loans, very small loans at low rates to help families to buy things like rainwater collectors. And some groups in India are testing heat insurance. The idea is that people who have to work outside, like farmworkers or garbage pickers, can’t safely do their jobs when it’s too hot out. And the number of days when it’s hot out is, of course, going up. So they can buy heat insurance for the equivalent of about $2.40 per year. And it pays out on days when the temperature is above a certain level. 

 

Max Fisher: Something I feel like we should keep in mind is that, yes, all of these programs cost money and some of them cost a lot. One plan for a New York City seawall to protect the city from straight up sinking as sea levels rise, would cost an estimated $119 billion. But all of these are still a hell of a lot cheaper than not preparing cities for heat and flooding. 

 

Erin Ryan: Right. One study estimated that every dollar spent on climate resilient infrastructure would ultimately save $2 in averted damages from things like storms or power outages. Admittedly, that study was commissioned by an engineering firm that would stand to benefit from cities spending billions on climate proofing. But the underlying idea is sound. Harvard Business School professor John Macomber put it succinctly on the podcast Climate Rising. 

 

[clip of John Macomber] Some places are very ready for these things to happen and some not. I kind of liken it to the old story of the Big Bad Wolf and The Three Little Pigs. And the first little pig has a house made of straw, and the wolf comes and blows it down. The second pig has spent more money, he has a house made of wood, and the wolf has a harder time. And the third pig has a house made of brick which the wolf can’t blow down. So the question becomes, how much more money is it to build in brick than in straw? How often is the wolf going to show up? Is a wolf going to see one of the other pigs? And is the wolf going to be in good breath when he gets here? 

 

Max Fisher: Honestly, recasting climate change and all major social problems as Grimm fairy tales is pretty helpful. 

 

Erin Ryan: Absolutely. That wolf, I don’t want the wolf to show up if I’m living in a straw house. Macomber also notes that there are five dangers of climate change that are linked. Like you mentioned, Max. Heat, river flooding, sea level rise, fire, and drought. Can’t take care of one without taking care of the other ones. 

 

Max Fisher: Right. 

 

Erin Ryan: And so cities facing one of these will likely at one point or another, face the other four. There’s also the issue of property rights. 

 

Max Fisher: Boo. 

 

Erin Ryan: I know boo, in a place like Los Angeles, where parts of the city contain very little public or green space, city planners trying to make the neighborhoods less hot would bump up against private property owners, and people tend to get salty when the government wants to turn their houses into a park. Although that didn’t stop the L.A. Dodgers when they set their sights on Chavez Ravine. 

 

Max Fisher: Yeah, no expense spared for big sports stadiums, but climate resilience for heat waves, all of a sudden we’re very sensitive about that. But we could honestly do a whole standalone episode on the cost of sports arenas.

 

Erin Ryan: And we will probably do that when you’re on vacation, Max. 

 

Max Fisher: [laughting] God bless. Here’s another statistic that stayed with me. As of last year, 46% of Americans experienced at least three consecutive days of temperatures above 100 degrees, and by 2050, that will apply to a projected 63% of Americans. So extreme heat is really coming for all of us. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah, and most Americans live in cities, which means we’ll be looking to those city governments to help us prepare. I gotta say, there is always a stretch living in Southern California, where we get like four or five days in a row that are close to or above 100 degrees, and they are objectively miserable. 

 

Max Fisher: Yeah. 

 

Erin Ryan: Um. Even in air conditioning. I remember a few years ago we had rolling blackouts and our AC wasn’t working when it was 113 degrees outside. It is like it is completely uncomfortable. Um.

 

Max Fisher: Yeah. That’s also a big part of a lot of climate resilient plans is how to deal with the basic inevitability of rolling blackouts or brownouts. Like when I lived in Phoenix, this was something that would happen whenever they would, like, do a lot to try to encourage people to use less power. But part of the Phoenix plan now is like, okay, well, the power’s going to go out when the temperature is too high for too long. So what are things we can do to have like emergency substations or emergency power banks to prepare for it? Which is like, I don’t know, like a lot of these climate resilience plans, on the one hand, it’s like oh okay. Somebody like thought through this and came up with a solution that is like reasonably practicable and like not too it’s not like the high tech whiz bang stuff I would have guessed it would have been. It’s like stuff that is pretty cheap to create just like day to day resilience so you can get through your week when temperatures are, you know, above 100 for many days in a row. But at the same time, it really drives home for me. It’s like, wow, the cities are really going to get kind of inhospitable in the relatively near future, even at the optimistic end of climate change projections. Just like really difficult, hot summers, you know, are going to be a thing from Phoenix to Boston. And that’s not just uncomfortable for people like you and me. It’s really dangerous for a lot of people. 

 

Erin Ryan: I mean, when I was a kid, we didn’t have central air in my house, and when it would get really, really hot, we would just, like, go in the basement [laughter] because it’s a constant temperature in the basement. It’s like 68 degrees constantly. But a lot of these places where there’s extreme heat, it’s not practical to just–

 

Max Fisher: Right. 

 

Erin Ryan: –dig basements. You can’t have a–

 

Max Fisher: Yeah. 

 

Erin Ryan: –basement in a earthquake zone. 

 

Max Fisher: Right. 

 

Erin Ryan: Really. 

 

Max Fisher: Right. 

 

Erin Ryan: It’s not a great idea. And so obviously there are things that we need to do in order to get ready. But I also think getting people to think long term is is going to be a challenge. Um. And and if there’s one thing we love to do in America, it’s being like, you know what, our kids are going to worry about that. 

 

Max Fisher: Someone else will take care of it. Yeah. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah. 

 

Max Fisher: It’s part of why I think it is nice that they are designing a number of these programs around, like, you know, something that we have talked about is that LA and Southern California have programs to provide a financial incentive for you to change out your grass lawn with local plants. And that’s something that’s aimed more at preserving water, although it does have a heat reduction effect and potentially a really big one if a lot of people do it. But it’s something where they have designed the program, not around, like do your duty to fight the climate, but like here’s some money in order to have a nicer lawn tomorrow, which is just, I think, just a smart way to structure it. 

 

Erin Ryan: And I also love the idea of roof gardens. 

 

Max Fisher: Yeah. 

 

Erin Ryan: Um. A roof garden is lovely. You can grow some of your own herbs. You don’t have to go to the grocery store just to get a bunch of parsley. You can just have parsley growing at your house. 

 

Max Fisher: Yes. Yeah. 

 

Erin Ryan: Um. It keeps the top of your house cool, and it’s really just lovely. And when I lived in Chicago, there were a lot of buildings that were doing that. So, you know, maybe some of these, some of these things that we’ll have to do to adjust to the new reality will actually objectively improve our lives. 

 

Max Fisher: Yeah. Absolutely.

 

Erin Ryan: Beyond just [?] the heat reduction and and making cities more um hospitable. And, God, I do not want to do those ice cold IVs. That sounds– 

 

Max Fisher: Cooling people from the inside is not my first op– 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah. Like a–

 

Max Fisher: My first preference. 

 

Erin Ryan: I’m not going to like shotgun a, put an IV. Ugh. God. Awful awful. Okay, well, let’s leave you all with this clip from a song by The Lovin’ Spoonful. 

 

Max Fisher: Ooh. Love them.

 

Erin Ryan: Written back when cities were not nearly as hot as they were. I wonder what The Lovin’ Spoonful would think today. 

 

[clip of Summer in the City by The Lovin’ Spoonful] Hot town, summer in the city. Back of my neck getting dirt and gritty. Bend down, isn’t it a pity–

 

Max Fisher: I didn’t know this was a Lovin’ Spoonful song. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yeah. 

 

Max Fisher: I really associate them with much more like country folksy ’60s. 

 

Erin Ryan: Yup. 

 

Max Fisher: Kind of.

 

Erin Ryan: Well, they don’t really know much about cities, clearly. 

 

Max Fisher: [laugh] That’s true. 

 

Erin Ryan: Coming in. [music break]

 

Max Fisher: How We Got Here is written and hosted by me, Max Fisher and Erin Ryan. 

 

Erin Ryan: Our producer is Emma Ilick-Frank. 

 

Max Fisher: Evans Sutton mixes and masters the show. 

 

Erin Ryan: Jordan Canter sound engineers the show. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Charlotte Landes, and Vasilis Fotopoulos.

 

Max Fisher: Production support from Leo Duran, Raven Yamamoto, and Adriene Hill. [music break]

 

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