In This Episode
Black men rally for Kamala Harris, a new map unveils the deadliest neighborhoods for police killings, a debate on politician accountability, and a fashion historian highlights a groundbreaking moment in Black history.
News
New map unveils the deadliest neighborhoods for police killings
Black Men Rally for Kamala Harris, and Confront an Elephant in the Room
‘I Am Speaking Now’: At a Rally in Detroit, Harris Stares Down Her Detractors
Through Bill Cunningham’s Lens, the Glitz and Drama of an Era-Defining Fashion Show
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles, De’Ara, and Kaya talking about the news that you might not have heard in the past week, and then obviously talking about the election because we’re like 80 something days away, which is so wild. And don’t forget to follow us on Instagram at @PodSavethePeople. Here we go.
De’Ara Balenger: Family, welcome to another episode of Pod Save the People. I am De’Ara Balenger. You can find me on Instagram at @dearabalenger.
Myles E. Johnson: My name is Myles E. Johnson. You can find me on Instagram exclusively at @pharaohrapture.
Kaya Henderson: Wow. That’s news. I’m Kaya Henderson. You can find me on Twitter at @HendersonKaya.
DeRay Mckesson: And this is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.
De’Ara Balenger: Well, here we are, friends, a week out before the convention. But before we get started on next week’s news, we’re obviously going to talk about what’s happened this past week. I think we wanted to start with Donald J. Trump. Just current happenings and rumblings.
DeRay Mckesson: It is so interesting that Trump now is saying that Kamala’s crowds are AI. That just happened today. He’s like, it couldn’t be all those people at uh wherever the rally was, he was like, it’s AI.
Kaya Henderson: Pennsylvania.
DeRay Mckesson: JD Vance got on the news and said that the Democrats are calling people names, which I thought was really rich, given Sleepy Joe.
Kaya Henderson: [laugh] Oh my gosh.
DeRay Mckesson: And all the things that those people have said. And then, apparently Trump said that their systems got hacked and that Iran gave the stuff to Politico. And the Washington Post has sat on it for a couple of weeks. And all I could think about was De’Ara and Hillary Clinton over there about her emails, because we saw every single email.
De’Ara Balenger: With the quickness.
DeRay Mckesson: That those people. I’m in one of the emails, I’m like, y’all don’t even don’t don’t write my name in nothing.
De’Ara Balenger: Sorry DeRay.
DeRay Mckesson: And and there if you’re talking about Politico and the Washington Post are like, oh, I don’t know, we just sat on this. So I was shocked about what’s going on um but Kamala’s doing really well in the polls. So shout out to Kamala.
De’Ara Balenger: She is. And one of those rallies was in Las Vegas, Nevada. And the D-nice–
Kaya Henderson: Oh yeah I saw that.
De’Ara Balenger: Was deejaying okay.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Kaya Henderson: I saw that.
De’Ara Balenger: So.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
De’Ara Balenger: That wasn’t AI people came to see D-nice, and Kamala.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Kaya Henderson: Listen you got to use the surrogates and external validators that make sense because that’s what Trump is doing. He’s rolling out all these rappers and whatnot trying to act like that’s the thing. So listen, if the man who brought us sanity in the midst of the pandemic can help Miss Harris do what she needs to do, I’m here for it all.
De’Ara Balenger: Word up.
Myles E. Johnson: It is really weird to see him just like melting in front of everybody. Um. And just totally losing his mind there. In my mind, there is a clear line between Trump and Drake. [laughter] And I think about how Kendrick Lamar used on Euphoria, he used the Wiz where Richard Pryor was like I’m a fraud, I’m a fraud, and then Richard Pryor just fully loses his mind. I feel like that is what Trump is doing. I think Trump was so reliant on Biden being really old that like he’s just malfunctioning. And, you know, I want them to keep them because I’m on I’m on the blue team.
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: But as an objective person, I’m like, you gotta get this man out of here. Like, you need to AI up a Reagan. A Reagan hologram would do better than what Trump is doing right now. Like it’s wild.
Kaya Henderson: I mean, again, I will say what I said last week, which is a month ago, I could not have imagined that we would be in this place, that Biden would resign, that we could actually have a candidate that people could really rally around, and the level of energy and motivation and sort of cross American support for her. You know, is astounding to watch and to watch the team that was winning just literally implode, I mean, implode. J.D. Vance I feel like they should just lock him in a room and act like they forgot about him, because every time he opens his mouth.
DeRay Mckesson: And he just can’t stop talking. He can’t–
Kaya Henderson: Every [?] yes.
DeRay Mckesson: He can’t help himself.
Kaya Henderson: Right? That’s right. Every time he opens his mouth and, he don’t have no more feet to put in it.
DeRay Mckesson: I forgot to ask, what do you all make about Pelosi’s press tour?
Myles E. Johnson: I loved it, I watched the Katie Couric interview. [laughter] I loved it. Because the thing about it is because I like, okay, I know that, like, Nancy Pelosi is like a more center than the policies I usually retain. But I’ve always really liked her because I really liked how tough she was. And I don’t know, I just always just had like a affinity for her as like a personality. But ever since they ran up in her house and her husband, I was I was like–
DeRay Mckesson: Right.
Myles E. Johnson: Pelosi, what do you have to say? So I liked her sitting and talking out the side of her neck and talking to Katie Couric and be and she was so plain about there’s this thing that, like, sometimes we make these, like, weird equivalence, like, like we, we make it seem like Trump and whatever’s happening on the Democratic Party are normal. And I thought Pelosi has been doing like a really good job on illustrating that this is not the same. I don’t care what you have to say about the Democratic Party, what’s going on over there is not the same. And I just like her toughness and I don’t know, I just it gave me a warm hug to say, yeah, they ran up in my house and I’m mad about it. I just liked seeing her be aggressive about that.
De’Ara Balenger: And some of her quotes. I mean, she said this about President Biden, they won the White House. Bravo. But my concern was, this ain’t happening. And we have to make a decision for this to happen. The president has to make a decision for that to happen. Now, the irony is, do I need to spell out the irony of Nancy Pelosi saying, it’s time?
DeRay Mckesson: Please do.
Kaya Henderson: Honey. Say it. Say it De’Ara, because the people don’t know. Good golly.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s time. So–
Kaya Henderson: It’s time, Nancy.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s time all around. Nancy. It’s time for this party all around. So all y’all that want to hold on to your 90th birthdays, which is six years–
Kaya Henderson: Exactly.
De’Ara Balenger: –away from Nancy Pelosi. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, may she rest in peace. But y’all staying up in there to our detriment.
Kaya Henderson: Messed us up.
Myles E. Johnson: So do you all think it’s equal? I hear what y’all are saying about the age thing. And as a young spring chicken.
Kaya Henderson: Come on. Cluck, cluck. [laughing] [clapping]
Myles E. Johnson: [laugh] But for and I’m not saying that she’s the most progressive person ever, but I do think her existing in politics and staying in older age is different than the white men. I do think in a sexist ageist society, this older woman who came in and really rode in on like these kind of democratic, I’m like–
De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm.
Myles E. Johnson: –listen, she’s center left now, but she came in on LGBT stuff. She came in on the children. I’m like, yeah.
Kaya Henderson: I don’t have a problem with her. I want all of the old people to go, sorry, I like no, no, I don’t, and I and I say that as somebody who is not a spring chicken, somebody who is entering, you know, an aged existence.
Myles E. Johnson: And autumn hen.
Kaya Henderson: And listen, um I might still be summer, but, um. [laughter]
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Kaya Henderson: But, all I’m saying is I think it is not a healthy democracy when we don’t have a range of experiences. The world that we are in today, these people, how could these people lead us into the future when I mean literally, these people are not familiar with the tools, with the whatever. All I’m saying is, the nation was in its heyday when we elected John F. Kennedy Junior, a 35 year old senator. Right. Barack Obama, young, energetic, ideas. We have to have a and I’m not saying there’s not a place for our older people in our governing system, but I am saying it can’t be the advertisement for the retirement home. We have to have a variety of ages, a variety of experiences, and this thing is not working for us.
De’Ara Balenger: That’s right.
Kaya Henderson: We almost lost this election if we had kept on going the way we were going. So I hear your point, Myles. I’m not saying bye bye Nancy and not bye bye Bernie. Bernie should have been done gone. Mitch McConnell, who can’t finish a sentence at the podium.
De’Ara Balenger: Oh.
Kaya Henderson: Should have been done gone. All these people got to go. They got to go. And and we have to learn how to pass and share power. That is the real point.
De’Ara Balenger: And Kaya, that’s what I’m speaking to more so it’s not an either or it’s a both and, I think part of the issue with politics in general, with any industry in general. And I just think we often think that politics isn’t going to have sort of these inequities. It’s like people love to maintain and hold on to power.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah.
De’Ara Balenger: Um. And I don’t think that’s a gendered thing. I think that’s like a power loving thing. And so I think with the leadership of our Democratic Party. Like we’re still talking about Chuck Schumer. We’re still talking about Nancy Pelosi, like make room for Hakeem. And they did. But now, not that it’s too late, but it’s like we should have been making these inroads for bringing in sort of younger, more diverse, more progressive folks a long, long time ago.
DeRay Mckesson: I was surprised by Pelosi. Two things with the Pelosi interview. She her double down on like, I ain’t called nobody, she said. I didn’t call not one soul. Yeah. Or when they said uh, is Biden still your friend? Are you still friends? And she’s like, you know, he knows I love him, da da I’m like, I love it, Pelosi. Because what I, what I always appreciate about her is that she understands power. That is true.
Kaya Henderson: Yes she does.
DeRay Mckesson: The whole crew has stayed longer than we needed them, but they understand power. What I was actually impressed with with Biden that I did not anticipate, is I appreciate that he did that interview maybe yesterday where he owned that he stepped down because of people in his party, because he could have easily been like, you know, I woke up and it just wasn’t the right time. Like, he could have made an excuse and said, you know, I prayed on it. But he was like, they said I, we couldn’t win Congress. And you’re like, that takes like a level of, there are a lot of political leaders that we all can think of who would not have said that, who would, who not who would not have said that people in my party told me this was not the right way to go. They would have made up some PR answer and I think that is true. So I was actually surprised by that.
De’Ara Balenger: Hmm. [laughter] I mean, that’s the interesting thing about this–
DeRay Mckesson: De’Ara, Hmmm.
De’Ara Balenger: –administration, right? [laughter] Well, because I think I’m just I’m even seeing and sort of hearing. You know, I’m a relationship person and that was always my role in politics. Like, I just wanted to make sure our people especially were plugged, had access, had opportunity. Right. Like that was how I saw my role. And I think what’s interesting about this administration is I don’t know how well they do relationships, but somebody is doing relationships well because they’ve got this historic legislation passed. But it’s like, I don’t know when you start to talk about like sort of the inner circles at the top, how well they’re doing relationships. Because when you start to think about DeRay, to your point, the president just being like they said, I ain’t got it. F em, I’d step down, Nancy Pelosi being like, I told him, like, it just seems like they don’t have their act together or they’re not talking, or there’s disruption or there’s discontent. It just seems bizarre.
Kaya Henderson: Or somebody open the cage and let the people roam free. [laughter]. I love it.
DeRay Mckesson: Hakeem is interesting to me because he’s done some things that I’m just like, there’s no there doesn’t seem to be a political win. And this is just because, like when the police stormed Columbia, Hakeem Jeffries got on the news and said, I did not see any police brutality. Mind you, the police are shooting in the building. And you’re like, why would you? It’s one thing to be pro-Israel, but you’re like, why would you say that? Like, like it’s those sort of things that Jeffries does where I just like, don’t understand. I’m like, what was the win there? That was weird to me.
De’Ara Balenger: I mean, we know why that is, DeRay. I mean like, [sigh] listen, I know it’s a podcast and we’re supposed to talk about things that are left unsaid, but some things I just gotta left unsaid. We know why Hakeem Jeffries did that.
Myles E. Johnson: I have no idea what you might be referring to Miss De’Ara, could you expound?
De’Ara Balenger: Look at Cori Bush’s speech that she made just this past week. You can get your answers there.
Myles E. Johnson: I want the answer from you. What’s going on? [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: Right, I know that’s right. De’Ara, you are the people, you the insider. We that’s why you here.
De’Ara Balenger: I’m not an insider!
DeRay Mckesson: This is why we got to talk about it to the podcast.
De’Ara Balenger: I, listen there are there’s some things, you know, maybe a disruptive insider. So there’s some some conversations I’m not brought into so I can only make assumptions. And then my assumptions are wild. So again.
Myles E. Johnson: What do assume in your opinion allegedly just to you? As an expert, allegedly as a private citizen?
De’Ara Balenger: I think–
Myles E. Johnson: Allegedly.
De’Ara Balenger: I think if you are a congressional member in New York, I think you have a lot of support from Jewish folks. And I think that you potentially shy away from what you are really feeling, what you really want to say, how you really want to represent your constituency. Um. And I think you sometimes may have to do that with your hands tied behind your back. But that’s just my, again, nothing but my years in politics and my being and my wisdom and who I am as a person. Those are the things that lead me to believe that.
Myles E. Johnson: Which is a lot, which is [?].
Kaya Henderson: Those are qualifications, baby. Those are qualifications.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay, okay. Okay/
De’Ara Balenger: I mean, my worry is for this convention. And I will say this is that this war, this continued annihilation of the Palestinian people. We saw 100 people killed, mostly children, a couple of days ago.
Myles E. Johnson: Right, right.
De’Ara Balenger: At this convention. If we’re not aligned on a party, on just one simple thing that, like human beings, should be allowed to exist without harm, we’re going to have some problems. And I am feeling like already, from the events that I’m seeing pop up, from happenings, that we’re not on that same accord. So there’s going to be some talking to and I can only speak for me. There’s going to be some talking to from people that I respect and love in the party on some of that action.
Myles E. Johnson: I was deeply that feels like where we’re like going into I was deeply, deeply, deeply disappointed about how Vice President Harris handled those protesters.
De’Ara Balenger: I actually wanted to wait to hear from you, because I’ve been hearing from some different people on how they took it.
Myles E. Johnson: Essentially, she was having her like the rally as usual. And then some protesters came and, you know, were being disruptive. Shouting at her and and essentially her address to those, you know, ceasefire pro-Palestinian however you want to call it anti genocide protesters. Her response to them was if you want Trump to get elected, just say that. Otherwise I’m speaking. So part of me, I liked the energy. Right. The actual energy of what she was saying, I was like, I think that is what what we all fell in love with her about is that we felt like she was so capable. I also felt like that is not how I thought it was just weirdly callous how she handled those protesters who are not saying something about I don’t I can’t even think of something else. But I’m like, we’re talking about exploding babies. We’re talking about a war. This is not actually the it shouldn’t be controversial to say, we don’t want this to happen. And I and and and it really almost like broke my heart because I am so excited about um Vice President Harris. I am so excited about Tim Walz. I’m so excited about everything, the hope and all that other stuff. But also I just I’m finding it really difficult to uh, to find some equilibrium in my mind around somebody who can’t just see these protesters who are talking about peace, who are talking about, we don’t want any more bloodshed. We have thousands and thousands of people dying. I just didn’t understand how that felt like the right beat to do and then just to close this out. But I do think in that moment, as a lot of people who are on the left in various degrees, but specifically people who are further left than others, I think it was in that moment you saw who you’re actually going to be dealing with when she’s in office. You’re dealing with a centrist who’s left of center, so you’re gonna have to push her on these things, because look how she actually responded to you without even getting the votes yet.
DeRay Mckesson: I the only thing I would say is that I think that is partially fair, because we can’t have this conversation without saying what she did the next day she was heckled. So the next time she was heckled, she clearly heard from the pushback. And her quote was, “Now is the time to get a ceasefire deal and get the hostage deal done. Now, is the time. I respect your voices, but we’re here to to now talk about this race in 2024.” So her response that first time was awful. And I was actually surprised that it was like the right, she like nailed it the second time. It was like, don’t dismiss them.
Myles E. Johnson: My only thing with that, DeRay, is I never trust any politician or any leader the second time. Your first time is your instinct.
DeRay Mckesson: Well I don’t know then that’s just a fail. Then I guess if people can’t learn and grow like that is a setup, like, I don’t know, that feels like a that doesn’t feel like a fair bar.
De’Ara Balenger: Also I just kind of feel like it’s such, like I think of the strong Black women in my life. And I imagine them up at a podium. And some white kids, I don’t know what color color they were. I’m making this up. And some white kids were saying anything disruptive, no matter the subject matter. Like, if I were on a game show and somebody would say to me, a powerful Black woman standing at a podium and she’s being heckled in the crowd, what does she do? I’d be like, rolled her head and said, I’m talking. Like that literally. [laughing].
Kaya Henderson: I actually think you’re right De’Ara. And I thought that it was a little performative. Right. So we’ve talked a little bit about how she is going above and beyond to show how Black she is. The call with Taraji on whatever that thing is. Hey, girl hey.
De’Ara Balenger: I think we should forget about that. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: She said, let’s delete it.
De’Ara Balenger: That was the Biden campaign. But now it’s the Harris campaign.
Myles E. Johnson: This is American politics, not Men–
Kaya Henderson: Nope.
Myles E. Johnson: –in Black. We cannot just forget.
Kaya Henderson: No no. No no no no no no no no. But I do think that I think that like, that is one of the things that she’s dealing with in the image that she is trying to project. Right. Like she is riding the rich Black auntie vibe. She’s riding the you know, I’m a strong Black woman vibe. That’s the like, Black woman trope, right? To some extent. Like, of course the auntie is going to get up there and roll her neck and be like, sit down and shut up, because I’m talking right now. And I think that the feedback that she got was like, boo you got to be everybody’s president. You have to hear people. You have to whatever, whatever. And I think it was easy for her to shed the thing that she might or might not really be, because I think some of this is her trying to, like, fit the suit that she is going to be in instead of just being herself, you know?
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
De’Ara Balenger: And I think it goes back to the relationship piece of it too, because man, your team has to be so strong. Like when Hillary would get protested by BLM everywhere, us staffers, when the young folks were ready to holler at us, like, we would sit and talk and then get their information, keep in touch, create opportunities for them to have time with her. Like it’s not, Myles you are right. It’s not like y’all got to be quiet and do what we say. Like it really is like it’s a campaign.It’s a–.
Kaya Henderson: Yup.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s a campaign. And we are trying to encourage you to not only to place your vote, but also to be in partnership with us on what we want this country to look like. I 100% hear you because I also made that my job, like we were very vocal as Black people on that campaign. Like, we need to sit down with these protesters. We need to create opportunities for dialog. It’s not just like, move them out the crowd. It’s like, let them do their thing. We’ll figure it out afterwards and take it from there.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. And I think so many people there specifically, I think probably like younger millennials, like like myself and um Gen Z, so many of us are really just passionate about this. And I think in general, we want to ensure that we’re not being tricked into voting into four more years of inaction. And I think that sometimes we’re very specific on what we see because, oh, are you just giving us talk right now? How come you said this on instinct? But you said this after you saw the feedback, why wasn’t your instinct more compassionate? I think that’s a fair thing too. But just in a general me being too thinky anyway and and just cultural, I think I had a little bit of a um, Barack Obama flashback with that because Barack Obama, I love I loved. And in that moment I saw a Black man be the head of an imperialist regime that has not that is not always on the good side of history. And yes, Vice President Harris was all of those Black auntie things. We’ve never seen that Black auntie energy in service of an imperialist, um uh often white supremacist, often patriarchal regime. And I think that also struck me too where I’m like, as much as I love her right now, she’s still going to be the figurehead of something that is oftentimes dangerous, oftentimes evil and, you know, often called America.
DeRay Mckesson: I know we have to move on to the Olympics, but we can’t say push her push her push her. And then when she changes, you’re like, she’s damned, she’s damned, she’s damned, she’s wrong. Like, that’s not fair.
Kaya Henderson: I would rather have somebody who listens to the feedback and learns from it and behaves differently. I could work with that. Then somebody who is stuck in whatever their first instinct is.
De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm. And I think also for context, like this is actually something that she is talking about in an organic way, where we didn’t hear Joe Biden talk about this at all unless it was a set up press conference or like a, you know what I’m saying? I just feel like, of course. And I’m I am also, what do we call it, summer, autumn or summer chicken? I don’t know.
Kaya Henderson: You still spring, girl.
De’Ara Balenger: But–
Kaya Henderson: You still spring. You late spring.
De’Ara Balenger: But I just I feel like for me, for me, having worked in politics and worked in government. Oftentimes change is slow and incremental, and I know we don’t want it to be. But I think contextually, even being able to talk about things in real time that are should be talked about, and should be always part of national conversation like that is happening now with her. Sometimes I’ll like her responses and sometimes we won’t. And some will be able to push her and sometimes hopefully we’ll get the return on that push.
DeRay Mckesson: So the last thing I’ll say on this is that, like I thought her first response was awful. And I the shocking thing for me was it was the first time in the campaign that I actually heard them do the Trump boogeyman. I thought they’ve done such a good job of of not sort of being the like, well, you’ll get Trump like that just hasn’t been a part of this. They’ve done, they we got Coach Walz and we got hope. And even when they did lock him up and like the way Walz moved out of that and was like, no, we’re going to beat him in the, like I was like, they like have been on the messaging. So the threat of Trump as the boogeyman, like, you know, I don’t think that’s a motivator anymore. And that’s actually what I was shocked by. [music break] Don’t go anywhere, more Pod Save the People is coming.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Let’s talk about Simone Biles. Who is that girl and nailed it. And did y’all see the WNBA game because that was shaky.
De’Ara Balenger: Mm mm.
DeRay Mckesson: I mean we won but we won on a thought and a prayer at the very, very end.
Kaya Henderson: I heard it was ugly. But a W is a W, it’s a gold. It’s eight consecutive golds. That’s all.
DeRay Mckesson: Steph Curry.
De’Ara Balenger: Oh my gosh. Did y’all see the Serbia USA men’s basketball?
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
De’Ara Balenger: That was–
DeRay Mckesson: Stellar.
De’Ara Balenger: –spectacular. I was very proud.
Kaya Henderson: Did you watch track?
DeRay Mckesson: Sydney McLaughlin is that girl.
Kaya Henderson: Did you see Rai Benjamin from Mount Vernon, New York? Did I shout him out again?
De’Ara Balenger: No.
Kaya Henderson: What? Come on my hometown people. Quincy in the 400? Yes. Yes. Yes. All all 16 years of him.
De’Ara Balenger: No. You know who I was obsessed with is Masai Russell, who won the women’s hurdles.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh her story. Great. Wait, Miles, did you watch any of the Olympics? Because Myles ain’t saying a single thing.
Kaya Henderson: Right. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: Myles is silent.
Myles E. Johnson: I think we need to unpack the homophobia in your questioning. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: Uh uh no, I’m gay too. What’s up? What’s up?
Kaya Henderson: DeRay put his dukes up and said, I’m gay too. What’s up?
Myles E. Johnson: You [?] some quinox gay, I am um Project runway, project runway I’ll walk there gay. Um. Private news listeners, I love Olympics, I love sports, and I love Black people in sports. I’ve been moving. So I just recently this morning hooked up my internet, um stuff. And there’s no cables. So I’m moving. I’m in flux. So, um despite I’m over here, like, am I am I DeRay’s Trump? [laughter] Why would you call me out like that? I was trying to ride it out.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m just trying to understand. Because I’m seeing your face. And it’s not giving no movement.
Myles E. Johnson: I haven’t got to watch it. I’ve been moving y’all, all week.
Kaya Henderson: So I had two questions that, like, you know, in crazy Kaya world, they just came up. But the first one was I like, I don’t know if I’ve ever watched an Olympics that was this Black, like Black, Black, Black, Black, Black, Black. Even the girl from Ireland was Black, like everybody was Black. [laughing] Everybody was Black. And literally I just thought to myself, okay, like the thought experiment, if we took all of the Black people out of the Olympics, what would be left?
Myles E. Johnson: The oh.
Kaya Henderson: Um. The breakdancing girls from these other places that were–
DeRay Mckesson: Oh my God, the breakdancer. Myles, did you not see the break dancers from Australia?
Kaya Henderson: Oh my God.
Myles E. Johnson: DeRay, I have been moving across state, listeners, no less.
DeRay Mckesson: You’re going to have to mail in audio because we need to see your thing on the break dancers.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh, I will split screen it quick.
Kaya Henderson: One of my friends was like, the Bronx dropped a collective tier or something like that. [laughter] It was horrific, but okay my other thought experiment there, and this is just a question, right? There are a lot of people who don’t like Black people. Right. And I’m thinking just specifically in American context, do you cheer for America when the people running are Black or jumping are Black or basketball and are Black, or do you pull back? Just wondering.
Myles E. Johnson: I have a so I’ll answer this. [laughter] I have a darker, cynical take on um Black people in sports. I actually think Black people in sports is the positionality that white supremacy wants to see Black people in, so no matter if you talk about um boxing, I know people love boxing, but there’s a lot of things that kind of feed into the stereotypes and the usefulness of Black people. And I think sports goes into that. So you’re able to say yes to Michael Jordan, and I love Michael Jordan and no to that Black person who’s an executive somewhere.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: For two different reasons so.
Kaya Henderson: That’s right.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, that’s my opinion.
Kaya Henderson: I think that is a solid sound opinion.
DeRay Mckesson: Well, can we just take a second Myles and I put it in the chat? I I think the world needs to see you watch the Olympic breakdancing. The woman that I put in has a PhD in breakdancing.
Kaya Henderson: Woo! Honey. [laughing].
De’Ara Balenger: I love the one where the guy is narrating.
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
De’Ara Balenger: Over the moon.
Kaya Henderson: Right. Touch my feet. Touch my feet. Touch my feet. [laughter] Bunny hop! Kangaroo Bunny.
Myles E. Johnson: Wait. This is supposed to be breakdancing.
DeRay Mckesson: She’s an Olympic breakdancer.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s like how the first time I went to a white strip club, how I felt. I’m like, that’s all them girls gotta do for a dollar? [laughter]
Myles E. Johnson: This is. I don’t know why while I’m watching this, I want to blame Lena Dunham. I don’t know how she’s to blame. [laughter] But this feels very Lena Dunham coded. And I don’t understand how, like, a Wes Anderson character becomes the face of breakdancing of the Olympics. What is she doing? She look like, what is she? It looks like Fiona Apple’s trying to vogue. Why is she doing this? And I love Fiona.
DeRay Mckesson: Olympic breakdancer.
Myles E. Johnson: What? Oh they’re playing. They’re playing.
Kaya Henderson: Which means that other people were competing and there was not one Black woman in the thing. And I didn’t watch mens, so I don’t. After the women’s, I was like, I can’t watch this no more.
DeRay Mckesson: Men’s was much better. Women’s was rough.
Kaya Henderson: I don’t think there was a Latina in the thing.
De’Ara Balenger: Yeah, that’s who you need–
Kaya Henderson: At like–
De’Ara Balenger: –to break dance.
Kaya Henderson: Come on.
De’Ara Balenger: Some Puerto Ricans.
Kaya Henderson: Child.
De’Ara Balenger: Or some Dominicans for real.
Myles E. Johnson: We need to go down to the Jellicle ball and get them some real athletes.
Kaya Henderson: Well, my news this week comes out of the New York Times, and it is dealing with the issue of Black men and who they are voting for in this presidential election. So the article starts us out by reminding us that Black men have been reliable voters for the Democrats for decades. But the uncomfortable truth is that a small but significant slice of Black men have historically been hesitant to support Black women seeking the highest positions of power in politics, in church, in business, wherever. They go back in history to Shirley Chisholm, who ran for president in 1972, first Black woman to run for president, and her Black male congressional colleagues felt like she should have asked for their permission before she decided to run. Say what? Stacey Abrams organized Stacey and the fella’s gatherings during her 2022 run for governor of Georgia, because of concerns that Black men were not supportive. And of course, Vice President Harris is expected to have challenges with men because of her top cop persona from when she was the prosecutor in California, in San Francisco and her association with the incarceration of Black men. Last year, the polls found that Black voters, particularly Black men, were more disconnected from the Democratic Party than they had been in decades, and that 12% of Black men said they had voted for Trump. But things might be different this time around. As many of you know, a day after she announced her candidacy, more than 40,000 Black men convened on a virtual call to discuss what this moment requires. And what I loved about this article is it literally raises the voices of these Black men. I wasn’t on the call, but now we know what they were talking about on the call. And Kwame Raoul, who is the attorney general of Illinois, said on the call, sometimes as Black men, we get confused as to what strength is. And sometimes we think standing behind a Black woman as a leader does not display strength as Black men. I’m here to tell you all tonight that it does the opposite of that. It does display strength. Brandon Johnson, who is the mayor of Chicago, urged Black men not to flinch in supporting Vice President Harris. He said the best moment we have to secure our democracy and protect the progress that we’ve made as a people is to put our arms around this sister. And Marc Morial, who is the president of the National Urban League, reminded the men that Harris is eminently qualified for the job. And he urged them, quote unquote, “not to engage or allow people to create a double standard in assessing her readiness.” And so um I thought it was really interesting to hear Black men speaking up on behalf of the vice president. What I also learned in this article was that for more than a year, Miss Harris has been paying close attention to the signs of erosion among Black voters, specifically Black men, and has done a bunch of things to try to mitigate that. She invited Black male leaders, business leaders, and heads of organizations to her official residence to hear their concerns. She held events around the country to make the case for how the Biden administration’s policies can help Black men specifically. She organized a meeting of 60 Black men at the White House with the NAACP in 2023, where she heard hard truths from them. They came and they said the things that needed to be said, and she engaged deeply with them on a variety of topics to their surprise. She invited a group of Black male leaders to her house for a series of meetings about the needs of their community, and she publicly admits that she has work to do to earn Black men’s votes. Mr. Trump, on the other hand, is trying to appeal to Black men by marketing gold sneakers to them, by campaigning with rappers, by claiming immigrant immigrants are stealing Black jobs, and by saying that Black men can relate to him because of his recent convictions. I will wrap this up with a quote from Jason Nichols, who is a senior lecturer at the University of Maryland, and he sums it up this way. You see the community coming together to vote their best interests, which in this case is a Black woman, he said. I think this time Black men understand the assignment. Hot dog brother Jason, Dr. Jason Nichols. Um. I like that. And I brought this [laugh] I brought this to the podcast because everybody knows about the Black man telephone call that happened. But I thought that this article did a really nice job of sort of laying out some of the history of misogynoir, I felt like it did a good job of lifting the voices of Black men in support of Harris. All of these outreach things that she did, I didn’t know about them. And so I figured other people didn’t know either. And so that was worth bringing to the podcast. And at the end of the day, I think the message that I need my brothers to hear specifically is that when we fight together for our community, we win together for our community. That’s all.
DeRay Mckesson: I was on the Black men call and I spoke at the Black Gay Men Call. I think people like Kamala. This reminds me of what happened with Obama. Do you remember there were some very vocal Black men who hated Obama, who hated the Obama White House, who didn’t want to be anywhere near Obama, who criticized Obama at every step of the way.
De’Ara Balenger: DeRay, you shouldn’t be talking about Jesse Jackson like that.
DeRay Mckesson: [laugh] He wasn’t even one of the people I was thinking about. Actually, that’s the crazy thing.
Kaya Henderson: And and a bunch of Black men who made a lot of money criticizing Obama, which is why they criticized Obama.
DeRay Mckesson: It was a huge boon. Is that this actually, to me, two things feels generational, and it feels like there’s a set of people who want to attack her so they can get invited to get a seat at the table later. That, like, they’ll have to woo and sway and like, I actually just don’t think that they are moving people where it matters. I was frankly surprised to see in this article, the NAACP guy criticized Kamala so, just so intensely, like he said, that the 2023 meeting was nothing more than a photo op. I was actually surprised. The quote is Dominic Whitehead, the NAACP senior vice president for campaigns, da da da said that he thought the meeting would feel transactional, merely a photo opportunity. There have been some neglect toward Black men and their issues. I think there were some hard truths they needed to hear, but they were open to hearing that. Like, I was sort of, I don’t know, like that was a weird quote coming from the NAACP. But as somebody who was in I remember being in two meetings with Obama and it was like we were getting teargassed and stuff, so we weren’t worried about that sort of power stuff. But it was interesting to see these older Black people, like, really fight about who got to be in the room with the president. I mean, it was like a, and we weren’t fighting we were the protesters. So we were going to be, you know, like we were the reason why the room was existing in that moment. But they were really jockeying for like, who got this seat and how many people and I was like, y’all, this is I’ll never forget it because I was offended.
Kaya Henderson: But this goes back to the point that we were making about the old people in politics.
DeRay Mckesson: Yes.
Kaya Henderson: We have a problem with sharing power. It’s not just old white people, it’s old Black people too. They are jockeying for position and power and holding on to it and not giving it to young folks like the people who created the room.
Myles E. Johnson: First thing when I read your article, Auntie Kaya, is that it reminded me of Toni Morrison’s Paradise. And in Paradise what Toni Morrison, so prophetically does, is situated in a all-Black town amongst Black people, and she addresses what would still be one of our concerns. And one of the main concerns is there will still be a patriarchal force in the Black community that needs to be addressed. And I think a lot of times when you see Black women want to obtain those patriarchal positions of power, they get a lot of pushback. I think the narratives that us as Black people have been given, um specifically Black women have been given are mammy, labor force. These are the the narratives that have been given. And when somebody decides to transgress that, they experience just severe pushback. And I think it’s sad. It’s evil that white people believe it, but it’s really sad that Black people often time, we also believe those narratives that we’ve been fed too. My other thought around that article ways how so I I hear y’all on the generational thing, and I believe that. But I always also want to push that I think it’s a class thing, and I think that Black people, in a very quick and extreme way, are being stratified by class, that we won’t even um, I I just don’t think that we’ll really be able to see how these, these next ten of these last ten years have separated us from other Black people by world. And it makes sense why a Charlemagne is able to be center and stuff because Black men don’t have a Bruce Springsteen. You know, I like when Tim Walz did that Bruce Springsteen thing and how Bruce Springsteen is still that. I’m a Bruce Springsteen fan myself, but like how Bruce Springsteen was able to uh, really rile the whole crowd up. Black men don’t have that right now. Curtis Mayfield’s gone. You know, Teddy Pendergrass is gone. Like I’m trying to think about all the, Bill Withers is gone.
Kaya Henderson: Can I tell you, Snoop Dogg did it [?] Olympics okay okay.
De’Ara Balenger: Child.
Myles E. Johnson: And then so don’t make me go on to a thing about how, like our, our representations of realness in media have been replaced by these extreme, um presentations of minstrelsy. Sexual minstrelsy.
Tell it.
Myles E. Johnson: All these different types of minstrelsies. So there’s really not that person you’re like, that is my grandpa. That’s my Black grandpa and he also has that power. And I think that we see that separation. And when it comes to uh Vice President Harris’s background. So you really have to force that narrative that that is not what happened. She wasn’t just a cop locking Black men up, because it’s very easy for us to do the Tyler Perryfication of what she was doing in our heads, because we see the script of the silk pressed light skinned Black women who attacked Black men. That is a very common trope, and you can’t undermine how powerful that trope is. And yeah, those are my thoughts. I think we need a Black Bruce Springsteen in order to uh, talk to a lot of Black men who feel disenfranchized by this new digital global world that we’re all in right now. You know, I’m now in a Midwesern, I’m not saying which one, but I’m now in a midwestern state, so I feel like I’ve been talking to so many people, and it’s such a conversation where I’m at, and it’s so not a conversation when I, when I um, when I click on the internet and when I look at New York Times articles and stuff, it just feels like that’s a disconnect of representation. So.
De’Ara Balenger: Myles, I completely agree. And even I mean, this is also why we get in trouble with these campaigns, because the campaign’s metrics are based on how many news hits they’re getting. Right. And so I think even this, which is perceived as a positive hit for Kamala, it’s still sort of reifies the same establishment stakeholders for Black people, whether that’s NAACP–
DeRay Mckesson: Yes, yes. Yes.
De’Ara Balenger: Where Derek Ferguson is there, or National Urban League, Marc like, I love these brothers. I do and have worked with them over the years when I was in politics. But like, what about Maurice Mitchell, who’s running the Working Families Party, or Dustin Gibson, who’s doing disabilities rights, or [?] Haney, who is in Ohio, Desmond Meade, who founded the Florida Rights Restoration Commission. Like, there are actually so many folks that are doing work on the ground every day that actually are building community, that are building movement, that a lot of Black men listen to. A lot of everybody kind of people listen to. So the fact that our representation of sort of, you know, here are the Black here are the Black male voices that are going to um legitimize Kamala and indeed legitimize this whole notion of like, Black men not supporting her are the same folks.
Kaya Henderson: But that’s the laziness of the New York Times, right? Like–
De’Ara Balenger: 100%.
Kaya Henderson: She had 60 Black male leaders, and–
De’Ara Balenger: Right.
Kaya Henderson: Like only three of them could be from the NAACP, the Urban League and whatever else. Right. The other 58 of them had to be from other places.
De’Ara Balenger: Places, that’s right.
Kaya Henderson: And instead of figuring out who those are and lifting up new Black voices, again, like there is the like holding on to power. And and it’s not just like everybody maintains their own power by only referencing the same organizations and the same people. And like, these are the things that we got to keep looking out for.
Myles E. Johnson: Isn’t it a fair feeling that if certain people in the Black community let go of power, that the power will fall? I’m not saying it’s a reality. Those are the images that were giving to me. If I was not engaged right on this podcast reading, if I was just working, it would feel like if these institutions. If these people were to like, where are they transferring like power to? Like, I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m just curious about why there is such a block to that. Like I even as like I’m looking at like Muhammad Ali and like how he represented himself. I’m like, what? Like I’m just trying to wrap my brain around what what blocked that representation because it doesn’t feel like there’s a new person right up underneath this person. It feels like we’re dealing with these 100 year old institutions and that’s it. I don’t know, maybe that’s just my warped view.
De’Ara Balenger: I think part of it, though, is Myles is like and just this isn’t just my work through my business, like a lot of the work we do is actually helping build nonprofits build capacity, right? Because for so many years it was the same sort of Black advocacy nonprofits getting all the funding, getting all the attention and getting all of the sort of access, particularly on Capitol Hill. And so it really is like Campaign Zero’s of the world, Florida rights restoration, like all of these organizations that have been building and building over the years, and mostly, I mean, in sort of our generation out of protests, these organizations have been established. I mean, the Women’s March is another example of that. It’s like a standing nonprofit now since 2016, but part of it is, running a nonprofit is hard. And also what you’re talking about in terms of like cultural relevance and resonance like that is a hard thing to do when you’re really just trying–
Myles E. Johnson: Right, right.
De’Ara Balenger: –to do movement and advocacy work every day, like getting an op-ed like some of what our company does is just help, you know, Black leaders get op-ed place. You know, so that they can actually start to establish their voice in a national setting. I think my hope is–
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
De’Ara Balenger: And the way I love to organize is actually independent of these power structures. I know we have to do both, but like how can we start to organize just on our own so we don’t have to rely on sort of a national conversation, whatever that means, to move our issues forward?
DeRay Mckesson: I do think too, and Myles, I think the fear you name is like a few other people talk about. I think that’s real. And I second everything De’Ara just said. I do think the internet has just changed the game too and people don’t know what to do with it. Because if you think about the JD Vance couch critique or story, comes from a random Twitter user. That goes viral, right? I think about us in the street in Ferguson. We changed the conversation of public safety. It was like some kids in the middle of the street.
De’Ara Balenger: That’s right.
DeRay Mckesson: With Twitter, right? And I do think that when we talk about this, like when like De’Ara talked about the NAACP Urban league da da da, I think they do feel threatened by the internet kids, by the TikTokers, by the tweeters, by the because suddenly–
Kaya Henderson: Yes indeed. Yes indeed.
DeRay Mckesson: We can shape whole conversations.
Kaya Henderson: Without them.
De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: Without them. You know, I even think about I have to deal with this in my work. I think about the number of people who think that everybody’s in a private prison, because that’s what people say on the internet, and it’s less than 8% of people. But I walk into rooms and they think that everybody in America is in a private prison, and that is like a symptom of sort of the internet and how power has changed. So that does not mean invite every TikToker to the meeting, that is also crazy because these people don’t know the content either. And I’ll tell you, having been in the in meetings at the White House. I’m like, does anybody here know the content. Because y’all are just the leaders like, y’all run the organization, don’t know nothing about the law, don’t know, please invite the staff because the staff actually know what we talking about. I’m interested to see how Kamala, but Kamala’s team seems with it, they do. I don’t know a lot of them, but whatever group of young people they got over there, like, they seem like they on it.
De’Ara Balenger: My news is about the Democratic National Convention. And mostly this news is selfish news because I’m a delegate for New York and I’m very excited. But I’m also like, what that mean?
Kaya Henderson: Woo hoo. We got us a delegate, y’all. [laugh]
DeRay Mckesson: I didn’t know if we could tell people. De’Ara’s a delegate, y’all. She’s a voting delegate.
De’Ara Balenger: As I educate myself and get ready.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Kaya Henderson: I’ve never known anybody who was a delegate before. This is a proud moment for our community.
DeRay Mckesson: Wait. Have you voted? But you still got to go do something at the you got to go press a button at the convention or something, right?
De’Ara Balenger: Nah. See, that’s why I had this article. Okay.
DeRay Mckesson: Okay, tell us.
De’Ara Balenger: First things first. When is the DNC? It’s next week, y’all. Monday, the 19th.
DeRay Mckesson: The 19th through the 21st.
De’Ara Balenger: 22nd. It’s Monday to Thursday. Kamala’s night will be on the Thursday. And so I did know this, like the daytime stuff is going to be at the McCormick center, which is basically the convention center. And then the evening things, which is like all the lights, camera, action, programming and speeches that will be at the United Center. Okay, who’s going to be there? We know obviously, our nominee, Kamala Harris, her running mate Tim Walz is going to be there, but also President Biden, of course. And then I just read that Barack Obama is confirmed to speak. I think Michelle is confirmed to speak as well.
Kaya Henderson: Come on. Auntie Chelle. [clapping] Set the place on fire.
DeRay Mckesson: Come on Michelle.
Kaya Henderson: Yes!
De’Ara Balenger: She should be the emcee.
Kaya Henderson: Oh, yeah, she should be the hostess. Yes. Call your people De’Ara. [?].
De’Ara Balenger: I’m gonna send my note. I’m gonna send that note to somebody. And Hillary Clinton, former president Bill Clinton, they’re they’re speaking as well. That’s really sort of all we know for now. But I’m expecting the programming to be very dynamic, especially since we have a new nominee. I think now people actually are very excited and want to go to convention. So I think where probably we had two celebrities going before now we have a very many, many, many. So that will be interesting to see. And I’ll, you know, whatever sort of things I find out or behind the scenes, I’ll obviously make sure that we all know, we all know here in this family.
Kaya Henderson: Sorry to interrupt, but on the people who are going to be there or not going to be there. Did you all see that Jimmy Carter, who will not be there, because he’s in failing health, said he’s only trying to make it so he could vote for Kamala? [banter].
De’Ara Balenger: That’s right.
DeRay Mckesson: He said I’d vote for Kamala.
De’Ara Balenger: That’s right.
Myles E. Johnson: That was so sweet that like, my heart chakra found it.
De’Ara Balenger: Very sweet. Okay, so how does it all work? Normally the convention would include a roll call vote to formally select the nominee for president and vice president. But this didn’t happen because it happened on the online. They were officially nominated. So we don’t got to do all the I mean, it is still so they I wonder what sort of if there’s going to be an alternative because there is something so exciting about the camera going from state to state.
Kaya Henderson: And hearing people. Yeah. Yeah.
De’Ara Balenger: Calling out the name. Yeah. So I do hope and I remember with Hillary in ’16, it was her best friend, Betsy Ebeling who who passed away, who we love Betsy. So I wonder I think that’s just like a production moment that is worth figuring out. What else is here? How often will um Harris and Walz appear? Because Donald Trump was there every single day, sitting there grinning and giving us the creeps.
Kaya Henderson: And falling asleep.
De’Ara Balenger: And [laugh].
Kaya Henderson: I’m just stating a fact.
De’Ara Balenger: So we don’t know. We don’t know how often they are going to be there. It’s not usually typical for the nominee to kind of like sit and hold throned court there at convention. Another question, yes, will there be protests? And the answer is a big ol yes. And just in contrast, the number of the protesters at the Republican convention in Milwaukee were smaller than we expect at the DNC. The largest protest, will most likely take place on the first and last days of the convention, though several others have been announced. An umbrella group of organizations on the left, the Coalition to March on the DNC, organized marches on both of those days. And it’s, of course, focused on Israel’s war in Gaza. So we will have a lot going on and Myles, to your point, I think that’s the other thing I sort of want to have like a family meeting on just with like the people I’m in community with that are going to convention.
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
De’Ara Balenger: Is that we have to hold space and compassion and solitude with these protesters and figuring out ways that we can be supportive in doing that. And so yeah, it’s going to be a lot. I’m very excited for all of the sort of ups and downs and all of the delight and joy that I hope to come from it as well. Yeah, I always feel super exhausted after convention, but this is the first convention I’m not, like, working like the convention. My first convention was in 2007 when I was working for Hillary, and then the nomination went to Barack Obama. And that was hard and a lot. And then my last one, I was running nonstop and got to take care of people like DeRay and others. That’s basically what I did the whole time at convention.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
DeRay Mckesson: It’s true.
De’Ara Balenger: So I feel like this will be more of that. So yeah, excited, excited and revved up. Let’s go.
Myles E. Johnson: When I turn off certain switches in my mind and I just focus on the DNC convention like I’m so excited about it. Like we kind of brushed over it, but I planned on telling you all because my boyfriend was like, well, you have to tell the people on the podcast. Like I was moved to tears seeing Vice President Harris and and Tim Walz. Like, I think him saying things about a Black woman that was supportive, that was um encouraging. I don’t know, there was just like an electricity that I felt that was really it just made me really emotional and and I think I’m just really hype about seeing the response of it and the representation of it. I’m just excited about, you know, getting somebody at the swap meet to spray paint whenever Michelle Obama and Vice President Harris meet. I want that spray painted, and I want that behind me in a very Black auntie way. Like I’m very hype about that. When I turn on all the switches in my head. I also really hope that there is some soulful, soulful engagement with the protests that are going on.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s right.
Myles E. Johnson: And I hope there is a really soulful strategy about how to address it and and, and I think that this everybody who’s been on this campaign has been doing genius work like, like top tier genius work. And I think that this is the time to really apply your genius and apply your compassion. Because I think that if you can say something that really gut punches some people, because Tim Walz said some stuff that really gut punched me and really made me feel what he was saying, as somebody who I just don’t agree with him on, I’m just further left on a lot of topics then um then he is, but he really gut punched me. I think that we can do that with these protests too, even just to make the everyday person feel feel like we’re on the right side of all the histories, if that makes sense.
DeRay Mckesson: What I will say too is um, even with Tim Walz on the news and with the convention and Barack Obama obviously famously at the at the DNC is one night can change your life. One speech can change your life.
De’Ara Balenger: Mmm. Come on.
DeRay Mckesson: And I’m super interested to see what happens when people speak, because if not for the DNC, that one speech, Barack Obama would not be president. If not for Tim Walz being on the news, calling Donald Trump weird and just sounding like a very sane, we’d never heard of the governor of Minnesota. Like, literally no who knew him? Like I didn’t know him. And I used to live in Minneapolis. Some of the legislation they passed, we supported. Never heard that man’s name before in my life. And I’m excited to see. I hope there’s new energy. I hope there are some people that get to talk that like we are impressed by and everybody will be watching. So I’m pumped to to get chills and be like, oh my God, did you see that person? Because all it takes is one speech to change your life. [music break] Don’t go anywhere, more Pod Save the People is coming.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: So as you all know, August 9th was ten years since Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson. I was in Saint Louis. I was with Mike’s mom. She doesn’t celebrate August 9th because she’s like, it is not a happy day when my son was killed, she celebrates his birthday. So we went with her, a small group of us it was like four or five of us. We went to the cemetery with her. We cleaned off his gravestone. We put some flowers down and she had some wind chimes and some other stuff we put out there. And then we went to lunch and and that was August 9th. But I bring it up because, A, I can’t believe it’s been ten years. that feels wild and all of us I’d be interested. I don’t know what your story was about when you found out Mike Brown was killed or your Ferguson story or whatever that was like. But um, ten years in, we at Campaign zero. We were able to launch, finally, neighborhood level data. So if you look around the country, uh you look at places like DC, New York, Saint Louis, Chicago, these big cities, the police are actually not killing people in all of the neighborhoods or all of the wards or city council districts. They are concentrated. So we’re rolling out neighborhood level data. We started with Saint Louis and Chicago, and what we believe to be true is true, which is that the killings by police are clustering in certain communities. So in Chicago, it is Ward 24 and Ward 28 that have the highest at ten killings in the past decade. And that and those two political wards. And in Saint Louis, it’s Ward eight. So if you go to mappingpoliceviolence.com/neighborhood, you’ll see it. So there’s a lot of new data. And then what I thought was interesting. We’ve never ever cut the data like this before. But we cut the data by the age and race combined. So what we know now is that the average age of a person killed by law enforcement in the US is 37 years old. But it’s 33 years old for Black people and 44 years old for white people. There’s a ton more data that’s going to come out now that we are ten years, that we have data for the first time that can look back over a decade, but I’m heartened that we have neighbor level data so that we can help people focus solutions in neighborhoods where the problem is actually manifesting. And I cannot believe, like I said, it’s been ten years. I’m like, it just feels like yesterday when I heard about the protests in Ferguson and and then was in the street in Ferguson, then Freddie Gray and Sandra Bland and Walter Scott and so many names that we all know but ten years.
Kaya Henderson: I will say DeRay, that I think this is um, this is huge. When I think about how much we use data to drive public policy decisions and how little data that we have that is specific to our communities, this is huge. I think people make a lot of assumptions. We take anecdotes and little qualitative stories and run with those. But this will allow us to really understand in each community because these are not one size fits all policy solutions. My community is different from yours, and this will allow us to really dig in and I think make more strategic investments, make smarter policy decisions, and challenge some people’s ideas about what is true and what is not true. Um. We have data on the things that are important to us. And when people like us are not running the data and are not, you know, asking the right questions, then we don’t get the information that we need. And so my hat goes off to you and to your team at Campaign Zero for asking the questions that our communities need answers to, and for getting smart about data and visualizing data the way other people do for their communities. We now get to see in a little bit deeper and that’s what we need. So thank you.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I echo what Kaya said. So I remember ten years ago really, really clearly. And the further we get away from Mike Brown, the more clearer it seems like of what things happened. Because as you listed the many Black people who have been, um killed by the police and just the weird circus around organizing and and digital media that happened. And I think you did such a good job and just Campaign Zero. Not just DeRay. But everybody at Campaign Zero, uh did such a good job at still keeping the main thing, the main thing, and staying with it, because it is ten years later and you do still have his data, and whereas and you’re still, uh in a way making so his death didn’t happen in vain. And I’ve seen I’m trying not to like name anybody or being like, trying to be catty in this. But I’ve seen so many people jump from situation to situation to situation for their own career growth. And I think it’s something really special and spectacular that an organization has actually stuck to what it was going to say, accept what is going to be done, and ten years later at campaign zero and you still have a relationship with Mike Brown’s mother. You’re still doing the work and keeping that at the focus, because now, ten years out, we see that that is not what everybody is on, unfortunately.
De’Ara Balenger: And you know, the thing that I think is so revelatory about how y’all did this data is that their names of these human beings, of these [sigh] like, it’s just crazy to me because we usually see to Kaya’s point. We usually see data as dots or graphs or so to see people’s names. And even just like the detail around folks’ nicknames. It’s like these are human beings that were taken from their families. And the grief doesn’t get any easier for these families, you know. So I think it’s also just like the say your name to it for the data’s sake, but also for just just acknowledging the humanity of all of these folks. And I’m I’m like, getting emotional because I’m scrolling over Minneapolis and Saint Paul and, like, these are people that people are still struggling with Philando’s death like people, my cousin worked in a school with him. And like, it’s just it’s it is wild that it’s like a flash in the news for all of us. But then these communities are still trying to figure out how to pull it together, and it keeps happening.
Myles E. Johnson: Exactly.
DeRay Mckesson: That’s the thing that like um, you saying that, you know, that’s what Leslie, I didn’t even think about it, but she was like she was like, how can I celebrate the ninth? You know?
De’Ara Balenger: Right? Right.
DeRay Mckesson: She’s like, they killed him. And his body lay in the street for four and a half hours, and I stood there. And it was hot outside. His blood soaked the street. She’s like, every time I go back on that street, I see it again. She’s like, what would it even mean to celebrate that, you know? And I’m like, girl, I get it. As soon as she said it I’m like, that makes total sense to me. You know? So people are throwing events and they’re like, why is she not here and. Da da. And she’s like, I can’t even believe you guys are asking me to do, like? And she’s like, I, you know, she’s like, I know people are well-meaning. You know like there but she’s like, imagine the worst day of your life, you having to go to like, parties about it. You know what I mean? And I’m like, that makes sense to me.
Myles E. Johnson: It shows how disconnected some of the thing. You know, I’ll say it to me, a lot of the movement work or a lot of people who are saying they’re doing movement work, it shows how disconnected people are from it. It shows how impersonal it can be, it shows how a lot of people are in it for because they’re careerists, and not because they’re activists. In in my opinion to me, come fight me, find my address. That’s my opinion.
De’Ara Balenger: I know that, and I’ll be there, too.
Kaya Henderson: I got your back, baby. I got your back.
Myles E. Johnson: And I think that that is shown in how in the tone of what you do. You know the thing about it, if you’re going to somebody’s gravesite with the mother, you get the tone, you get the feeling, you get what you’re supposed to what you get what this moment is. But if it’s not that, then you’ll do a whole lot of stuff that is tonally off or or inappropriate because you’re not really soulfully connected with the work. It is a bullet point on one’s digital resume, and that’s the difference. Just to say it plainly.
Kaya Henderson: Whew chile. Mm.
Myles E. Johnson: So um, my news this week is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite fashion events that has ever happened in fashion history, the Battle of Versailles. Um. Billy Cunningham, who is an amazing photographer, is releasing a book that is um going to uh document and shows the photos that he did during um during the Battle of Versailles. Now, somebody might ask me, Myles, why do you care about what’s going on in Paris a good you know, 30 something odd years before you were even a thought in your mama Enid’s brain? And I will tell you why. Because fashion met Negro, and that birthed me. [laughter].
Kaya Henderson: Yes. Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: So. The story behind the Battle of Versailles is that fashion French fashion did not see American fashion as true fashion. So they, in order to fund, um I believe it’s the the gold opera room, they were they put on this fashion show. But it began to be the highlight of fashion that year. And each country have represented different things. And what’s going to present their best, the best of fashion. So the legend goes, there was some people who did too much theater. They actually were too American. They were over here doing fireworks and you know, just all the corny vaudeville stuff that American culture is built upon. And then when the American designers came and we’re talking about Halston, uh like when the American designers came. They came out and they came modern. They came slick. We had Liza Minnelli opening for them. They came um with these really, forward thinking, effortless garments that really spoke to, like, a very European French sensability. But obviously with a American twist and amongst all other things, over 60% of these models were Negroid, Negroes. [laughter]
De’Ara Balenger: Not groids.
Myles E. Johnson: Black. Colored and as Trump would say, Black. They were Black. [laughter] So we’ll talk about um, we’re talking about Pat Cleveland. We’re talking about, uh that we’re talking about Bethann Hardison, these are the models that we might know in our heads as just icons, but this moment really broke them open to a whole new world. It also showed America as this chic, diverse, beautiful place that we were not. But we were selling a dream. That’s what fashion’s about is selling a dream, selling a fantasy of what we were. And our fantasy really hit home. And I just think for me, when I think about the Battle of Versailles, when I think of Diahann Carroll just as a person, as an entity, as an icon, when I think about every version of Patti LaBelle that we’ve had, [laugh] when I think about certain people who uh, who are Black and how they really pushed us forward when it comes to fashion. And I think about these moments, and just to me, there’s nothing that so illustrates the coolness and the energy of being in a new world post ’60s, then the Battle of Versailles. In this book as well, there’s supposed to be some really great documentation of Halston, who was on all the cocaine, drinking all the liquor, and had too much money to spend. So there’s some good gossip in here. There’s good commentary by Pat Cleveland, there’s good commentary about Bethann Hardison. Who I believe I’ve talked about on this podcast before. If you haven’t seen her documentary, go check it out. And also. Listen. Y’all listen. If you are Black and you want thread, fabric, and you’re putting things together. I already love you because you’re doing that. I really hope that we begin to study our fashion history, and we start thinking about what can take things further and what can start taking things to another level. Because when I see the garments, when I see the people walking, you know, I feel like right now fashion is trapped in this, like, cool prison where that Balenciaga is like the warden of. [laugh] Like for whatever reason. And at the end of the day, Black folks in fashion was another vehicle for us to show ourselves in a more diverse light, in elegance, in avant garde styles, in design. And I really hope that we get back to that, because I feel like I don’t see anything right now that gives me the same chills that the Battle of Versailles does. And I don’t think it’s because we don’t have the talent or because we don’t have the resources. I think that because sometimes we don’t have the imagination. And I think oftentimes our imaginations are pushed by the environments that we’re in, and and maybe we don’t think that we need to do it anymore, but we do. Again, I am not saying any names because I’m always one degree about somebody who I want to talk shit about.
De’Ara Balenger: Y’all make me name names, and explain things. [laughter] Just saying.
Myles E. Johnson: I was watching Katie Couric. I just wanted to know what was going on. [laugh] I just wanted to know what’s going on with you, but no um, I think it’s such a useful event to, A, of course to document. But also, if you haven’t heard about it, to research, because it’s such an interesting moment in fashion history and American history and Black American cultural history. And there’s a new book that’s going to tell you all about it. Good gossip, good history, good design. I wanted to bring it to the podcast because the style wing, the fashion wing of this podcast is on my back. My couture back. So– [laughter]
Kaya Henderson: Thank you for shouldering that for us.
Myles E. Johnson: My size 18 back. You know you know. I got y’all. I got y’all. Somebody has to wear this Schiaparelli. You know, and I and I’m and I’m happy to bring that to you. Um. Have you all heard so I want to know if anybody has heard about the Battle of Versailles already previously. Did I bring anything new? And then also, um if you have any fashion moment doesn’t have to be in the ’70s or anything like that, but if you have a little cute fashion moment that you want to share, I think that would be a beautiful way to honor this iconic moment in fashion Black American history.
De’Ara Balenger: I know the Battle for Versailles, so I you know, I’m a student of Black culture. And the other cool thing about this is that Stephen Burrows was a Black design– he was one of the designers so it was basically like the French designers against the American designers. And one of the American designers was Steve Burrows. And so that’s part of like he was part of the crew with Bethann and Pat Cleveland and these others. So I’m obsessed with this. I’m obsessed with Black people in France and Paris in particular. I’ve also like if you watch sort of Bethann Hardison’s Invisible Beauty with Leon Talley’s Gospel by Leon. And then there’s also a documentary on it’s short, but it’s good on the Battle of Versailles. You start to piece it all together, but it is it’s so amazing how Black people can be so luxurious, just luxe, starting from the humblest beginnings and just ugh the chicness. I just can’t even take it. So, Myles. Yes, I love this, I know this. I can’t wait to get this book. Thank you for bringing this to us.
Kaya Henderson: I will say I did not know about the Battle of Versailles. And so thank you for bringing me.
DeRay Mckesson: Yay.
Kaya Henderson: Um. And I have already sent it to my curriculum team at Reconstruction to say we need to do a course–
De’Ara Balenger: Yes.
Kaya Henderson: –on Black fashion history. And so when you have your own curriculum company, you can teach the babies whatever you want to teach them and so–
Myles E. Johnson: Well hold on. How do I teach that one?
Kaya Henderson: So so we, we will be in touch Myles about that. And you know, I mean one, I love learning about Black history that we haven’t been taught or didn’t know about. So thank you for bringing that. I also, it just conjured up in my Black imagination like this was at the Palace of Versailles with all of this intricate, ornate whiteness happening. And they had the servants dressed up in wigs and powdered wigs and all of the things. And I could just imagine these “uncultured,” quote unquote, uncultured Americans arriving at the Palace of Versailles, whipping these French people’s booties on the fashion front. I, it reminded me a lot. I it felt resonant in this Olympic moment that the Olympics were just in Paris, and we just had to go out there and whip up on the people. And it reminded, it just, I mean, time and time again, we have every piece of evidence that we create the culture that like this is make America great again? Make America Black again. America is great because America is Black like these people won because of the Blackness. Sorry. And it just reminded me that America always wins with Black people.
DeRay Mckesson: Boom. I know Bethann Hardison. I don’t know as much about the battle itself. I need to learn. Shout out to the news.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Well that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @crookedmedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People was a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger and Myles E. Johnson.
