Ira and Louis discuss Jojo Siwa’s rebrand and alleged invention of “Gay Pop,” Sex and the City’s Netflix arrival, Ripley, and Jerrod Carmichael’s show. Carla Gugino joins to discuss The Girls on the Bus, her start in 80s multi-cams, working with Robert Rodriguez and Brian DePalma, and more.

YouTube language: Subscribe to Keep It on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive content, and other community events. Find us there at YouTube.com/@KeepItPodcast

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III And we’re back with an all new episode of Keep It. I’m Ira Madison the third.

 

Louis Virtel I still got the cowboy hat on. I’m Cowboy Carter, friend and ally Louis Virtel.

 

Ira Madison III I got the shirt on.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. You do. I’m actually wearing my Liz Phair shirt because I am, after all, me. But Cowboy Carter is still lingering. In fact, I feel like it’s really the only pop culture still going on right now.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah,  get,  get Liz Phair on act iii, the rock album.

 

Louis Virtel Which are we sure it’s a rock album?

 

Ira Madison III I don’t know, because this album is so or so rocky.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, we got the rock influences like well and good on this album. We went back to the Beach Boys etc. so.

 

Ira Madison III Well, maybe act three is Bullwinkle.

 

Louis Virtel Guest vocals by Natasha, please.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah. There’s really not a lot going on in the pop culture ether besides Cowboy Carter still. I mean, it’s all people are still talking about. It’s all I want to talk about. It’s all I’ve been listening to. But, alas, we must persist.

 

Louis Virtel I fucking yeah, at what? We don’t know. But we will keep going.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, I’m mostly looking forward to my coming weekend. I’m going to Coachella.

 

Louis Virtel Can I tell you, I know Coachella is not really my thing. It does blow me away that I’ve never been. I feel like this year’s lineup is a little bit of whoever was around. I don’t know, is this like, it’s it feels like a B minus lineup for me?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, this one is Lana Del Rey. People, sosmeone called it

 

Louis Virtel The world’s largest crowd to watch her. I feel like it should be literally just the troubadour.

 

Ira Madison III So I would called it Lana-chella the other day, and I was like, sure. Okay.

 

Louis Virtel Would you call yourself a big fan of hers?

 

Ira Madison III I am a big fan of Lana Del Rey. I would say that I am looking forward to what she brings to just the vibe of being in the desert and, you know, on, whatever drug you want to be on, you know, that just, you know, feels like, okay, the sun setting. I’m taking this, and that feels like very, you know, flower people. Woodstock. Maybe that’s a good vibe. Yeah. For her. I did see her show after Norman fucking Rockwell at the Hollywood Bowl, and I was disappointed because it was billed as Lana and Friends, and there were a lot of friends on stage who I didn’t care about. Okay. And I’m not talking Jen am. Okay. Okay. Courteney Cox was not there. Not it, not those kind of friends. And also, she did not play as many songs from the album as I had hoped. So yeah, I’m, I’m interested to see like, what happens for this show. But you know, Tyler the Creator is also headlining. And then there’s Doja Cat, who’s headlining as well.

 

Louis Virtel She’ll do some something freaky. I pray you’ll go. You’ll go to bed with nightmares at the very least.

 

Ira Madison III And I just saw the Scarlett tour, so I’m like, I’m excited to see if it’s different, etc. and what I’m most excited about, though, is the No Doubt reunion.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I wonder, I’ll probably just get the greatest hits there. I don’t know what I would expect otherwise. I’m trying to think of what I would most prefer to see, No Doubt. Play like you know. What is the the Rowdiest song is Ex-Girlfriend. I hope you get Ex-Girlfriend.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, it’s billed as No Doubt and not Gwen Stefani, you know, so I, I feel like if we get any Gwen songs will be 1 or 2, but it feels like this is like, No Doubt heavy, which I am super fucking stoked for.

 

Louis Virtel That’s it. If she does Cool, I feel like that will light up that audience. I feel like in a way that, like Madonna’s Don’t Tell Me seems to keep catching on for people. I feel like Cool, and the video for Cool, are now may be her definitive solo achievement.

 

Ira Madison III Okay, well, two things about what you just said. Okay? One, these Madonna fans, okay, constantly bringing up. Don’t Tell Me, in the wake of Cowboy Carter. Give it a rest, girl.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Okay, yeah. She didn’t invent the genre. I mean, like, it’s like she barely has one country-ish song on that album where she’s wearing a cowboy hat on the cover.

 

Ira Madison III It is not a country album.

 

Louis Virtel Not at all. No.

 

Ira Madison III And the cowboy hat is more her being a pimp, like in the music video.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Right, right.

 

Ira Madison III She’s a mack daddy.

 

Louis Virtel With Ali G. Yes, I remember those days.

 

Ira Madison III Sacha Baron Cohen.

 

Louis Virtel We love it when I have nothing to say about him at this point, at this point. But, get out of there.

 

Ira Madison III See the divorce announcement on Instagram?

 

Louis Virtel When she’s like, we been in a 23 year tennis match and it’s finally come to, what the fuck does that mean?

 

Ira Madison III Challengers promo is what it is.

 

Louis Virtel By the way. Could look like what, you know, take 30 less projects every fucking day. He’s doing something.

 

Ira Madison III There are at least 20 things coming out soon from him. And I’m like, girl, what are you doing here?

 

Louis Virtel No, it’s one of those like Wikipedia’s where like, you see their filmography and there’s the items in white and then 14 items in gray that are. So it’s like, this isn’t how life works. You can’t work on 14 things.

 

Ira Madison III The second thing I want to say about that is for people younger than us. There’s this weird phenomenon where so many of them do not know that Gwen Stefani was in a band.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, we can’t be doing this. I’m so sorry. I mean, I don’t even want to say open a book. I mean, open your mind, your heart, anything. You know what I mean?

 

Ira Madison III We need VH one to run back. I love.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III The decade’s okay if put it on TikTok or something, but we are not educating people.

 

Louis Virtel No, I get we talk about this all the time. People have no pathway to understand things that are even occurred not just before their birth, before this moment. I think, like at the point of entertainment right now is people are so compulsively attached to the president. What conversation is happening at this moment that they have no reason to even invoke earlier eras? Whatever. Everything that isn’t from this moment feels old to people, and they dismiss it there because.

 

Ira Madison III Which is, pressing it for what we’re about to discuss. Yeah. Today, we’re discussing Jojo Siwa and her rebrand, as it were, and how she is going on about how she’s creating a new genre called gay pop. And if you’ve seen many of the responses to it, you know that this is not a new genre. First of all, pop is gay. Okay, one of the gay.

 

Louis Virtel It’s one of the gay. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III They were playing Pet Sounds at the bath house. Okay. And two.

 

Louis Virtel That would be disorienting for me personally, but okay, I just wasn’t made for these times as I’m getting jerked off. Moving on.

 

Ira Madison III Wouldn’t it be nice, though? Oh, no, no.

 

Louis Virtel No, I understand. Wouldn’t it be nice? Wouldn’t it be nice? Always feels like a gay coded song to me. Even though I know it’s not. Anyway.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And That’s Not Me, my favorite song on the album. It’s very dark in these bath houses. You think you are jerking off, you know, the hot guy that you’ve been eyeing earlier, but he says, hey, that’s not me. I’m your neighbor, Bill. We shouldn’t do this.

 

Louis Virtel Bill.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill sounds like a 60s gay name.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Oh, God. My hairdresser, Bill. What a prick.

 

Ira Madison III We are also going to discuss Sex and the City. In a sense, we’ve talked about Sex and the City so much on this show. It’s one of our. It’s one of our top ten topics. So if you’re playing Family Feud and it’s like, what’s a Keep It topic? Sex and the City is probably number five.

 

Louis Virtel I’m going to say seven right? Yeah, it’s below seven. The Madonnas and the Beyonce and yeah.

 

Ira Madison III But it is it is back, in the pop culture sphere, because Sex and the City has now hit Netflix and I will say we’ll get to it. But I feel like more people are worried about Gen Z’s response to Sex and the City so far than we have gotten actual weird, puritanical Gen-Z responses to Sex and the City.

 

Louis Virtel This may be a Pollyanna response from me, but it’s like the show is way too entertaining to be like that pissed off about, I don’t know, like literally. I think the worst thing you could say about it is, oh, Carrie was thinking about herself again, which is what people are still haranguing her for when a woman being self-absorbed and the main character is still, like, a little bit revolutionary.

 

Ira Madison III But that’s our show this week, and we are also joined by the amazing Carla Gugino.

 

Louis Virtel She first of all, if you have a favorite movie, she’s in it. Her entire filmography is just every fucking movie, including the Stephen King adaptation Gerald’s Game that was on, Netflix a few years ago. I am still stung by that movie. The first of all, what is just wrong with him? Do we do we ever get to know what’s wrong with Stephen King and what he writes? We talk about her new show, Girls on the Bus, which is on MAX. But, I specifically bring up Gerald’s Game, because if you haven’t seen it, it’s about a woman who is handcuffed to a bed, during a kind of sex game with her partner, and the partner dies. And what she has to do to survive. And it is, as I say to her, one of the greatest acting obstacle courses I’ve ever seen somebody have to go to. So we get into that much more with her.

 

Ira Madison III Molly thought her game was wild.

 

Louis Virtel No, please. That has cards. You can learn how to play that online.

 

Ira Madison III All right. We will be back with more Keep It.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III Well, sorry to Tegan and Sara, you know. But there’s a new queen of gay pop.

 

Louis Virtel Who coined the term herself.

 

Ira Madison III She did. She did. You know the bard herself, Jojo Siwa. The former child star is now pivoting hard into a bad girl persona. Bad girls and heavy quotes. If you’re not watching the video of this on YouTube. And she has audaciously stated that she’d like to create a new genre called gay pop. The internet is obviously in an uproar, except for Abby Lee Miller, who’s 100% on board because she birthed Jojo.

 

Louis Virtel That’s right. It’s just so funny that, like, still to this day, we have former child stars doing the exact conventional thing to not be a child star anymore. Like, is it even considered rebellious? If you are truly just on the like, there’s there’s a ladder and there’s different rungs with different names, and now you’re hitting naughty former child star territory, which is just what they all do. It’s Miley, it’s all these people.

 

Ira Madison III I get it, you march down to the president of Disney Channel’s office and you said.

 

Louis Virtel I want to make history. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III And that’s what.

 

Louis Virtel This is, Debby Ryan. The other.

 

Ira Madison III Part. Yes. I want to say specifically about the rebrand before we even get into her new single, Karma. It is interesting how different it is from the other rebrands. The bad girl rebrands that we’ve seen before because you would expect, okay, we catch her smoking cigarets, or you see her sneaking like a bump of cocaine at a party. And then the press is in an uproar. And then we see the rebrand happen after this, right. She’s sort of orchestrating this rebrand, and it’s not really hitting for me as an esthetic because the rebrand is, she looks like a Power Rangers villain.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. The hairstyles like that.

 

Ira Madison III Brown make up, it’s. This isn’t giving Batgirl. It’s giving theater girl.

 

Louis Virtel Wow. You went for bad girl and hit theater girl. That’s that’s one of the greater drags you’ve ever dragged. If I if I do say so myself.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you. I just feel like it’s very. What are we doing here? There’s. There’s nothing bad about it, you.

 

Louis Virtel Know, it’s also like, silly, you know?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I mean, goofy.

 

Louis Virtel It’s also like, I would compare it to Kesha where it’s. She is doing like a I’m being trashy thing. But there is, strangely, a wholesomeness about Kesha too, you know? Yeah. Like, I’m not seeing something utterly depraved here. Like, like, I guess people would say a successful version of this would be the Christina Aguilera stripped, renaissance where she became super naughty. But even that, like, that had the vibe. And this does, too, of somebody trying to cut loose at college, you know, like, make a scene with being naughty as opposed to it being sort of a genuine part of their animal.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And listen, she’s also 20 and you’re allowed to make these goofy mistakes.

 

Louis Virtel But yeah, she’s fucking wrong. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III But yeah. But also there’s, there really is. No is she’s talking about like, you know, she’s talking about kissing girls now and like lesbian relationships and there’s is just seems devoid of any sort of like, sexuality.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I will say in regards to her new single, karma, there is something she is doing vocally on the chorus. The way she sings Karma’s a bitch and she’s like, pain.

 

Ira Madison III Out of that chord.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, the chorus is great cause it reminds me of what I still think is the funniest moment in Katy Perry’s career. And you know, the girl wanted to be funny.

 

Ira Madison III I saw her at The Cellar last week.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah, I’m sure she had a tight 15 to do about killing that nun or whatever. The funniest moment in Katy Perry’s career is in her first single, I Kissed a Girl. The chorus and I kissed a girl just to try it like that’s what to me. Jojo. See what reminds me of that line? Reading where I’m like, I’m having fun.

 

Ira Madison III Just let me have fun. Is it? I’m a woman? Yeah. This is this is sort of how it feels. And I do want to say that the song, though, I kind of can’t stop listening to it.

 

Louis Virtel I feel like we’re in a dearth of hooks that immediately hit, and I’m singing in my head immediately after, and that this song does that for me.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, and I can credit that with the producers of the song Rock Mafia and with you are fans of pop music of yesteryear. You were called Rock Mafia was all up in Miley Cyrus’s, production discography.

 

Louis Virtel It is impossible not to think of Miley Cyrus when you watch Jojo Siwa. By the way. It’s the same sort of like watch me bust out all over. I’m sorry, this is me quoting Leslie Uggams now.

 

Ira Madison III Well, speaking of the goofiness, right? It is. If you look back on it, it was kind of goofy that Miley Cyrus’s, version of I’m a Slave For You, which when Britney did I’m a Slave For You, it was, you know, first of all, it was marred in all of the press uproar over, her being, you know, to to sexy for a teenager. Yes. And so she was leaning into that when Miley Cyrus did her I’m A Slave For You. It was Can’t Be Tamed. And the visual for that was her with giant wings inside of a cage.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Tony Kushner said, step up my game, bitch.

 

Ira Madison III And so the song, I will say, is the saving grace in this sort of rebrand. Yeah. You know, it is something I can’t turn off. It’s like it’s stuck in my brain.

 

Louis Virtel Maybe this is obvious too. I would compare it to maybe Ava Max, who kind of doesn’t miss when it comes to the here comes the big three note chorus that you can’t get out of your head, that you know feels like a ringtone or something. It just designed to permeate everybody’s consciousness immediately.

 

Ira Madison III That is not to say that she, Jojo, needs to be doing like And I’m a Slave for you or Christina Aguilera, Stripped. I think we’re actually sort of past that era where you’re sort of just, forcing sort of a. Sexuality on yourself or on your audience. You know, I don’t think that, sort of like Gen Z is into that anyway. It’s sort of seems like a very millennial. 2000s late 90s thing.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III But, you know, there’s got to be something else besides looking like, you know, you’re doing commedia dell’arte.

 

Louis Virtel But, by the way, tell that to your girl Chappell Roan, because, excuse me, every fag is falling for this girl. And by the way, her voice is amazing. I haven’t done a lot of work on the actual music yet. She has an amazing voice, man. Though the esthetic. I just don’t need to see Raggedy Andy in peril like this, I don’t understand. Where are the strings?

 

Ira Madison III She is putting the buh and baroque. Yeah. I will say that she my girl, chop around. This is. This is like 24 hours in the making. Okay, okay, so I have long resisted Chappell Roan.

 

Louis Virtel This is a new pop star. If you don’t know, Chappell Roan. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, yes. At after is like a few years ago, friends would always be like, you need to listen to Pink Pony Club. This song is amazing and I like it. I would always like it when it came on.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III I never revisited it and I always felt that her esthetic was giving Theater Girl. It was giving a little bit too much Ren faire. It was like the weird nose’s. It was very Buffy villain for me. And that’s not pop star.

 

Louis Virtel I also think it was like going for irreverence in a way. But I’m like, is it funny? Like, what is the point of it? I was I wasn’t getting the point of it, other than, isn’t this crazy?

 

Ira Madison III But, I finally decided to give the music a little spin after, chaperon just released, a new single, and that single is called Good Luck Babe. It’s actually really kind of fantastic, but how I got hooked into it was, Chappell Roan went live to sort of promote her new single, and it happened to be at the same time that Jojo Siwa released the video for karma. And so instead you get chapel watching JoJo’s video in real time and going, what? I don’t have time for this. It was downright right.

 

Louis Virtel A little rude, a little funny. Now I’m a fan. See.

 

Ira Madison III Right, and I’m like, that is what I want at a pop star. You got to have a little bit of. I’ve got some shady things to say. Yeah. That was she. I cracked up at it. And so I was like, you know what? I’m going to give her music another listen. And I listen to the new single. Absolutely love it. And then I watched her tiny desk, and I’m not sold on the esthetic for the tiny desk. Yeah, yet, but she sounds fucking amazing. And I’m now going to be seated at her Coachella set this weekend.

 

Louis Virtel She’s like the definition of someone where I just didn’t give her. I haven’t given her the proper time, even though she’s constantly been around. Like two summers ago, I was at Fire Island and somebody in my house who had to work during the day literally played Pink Pony Club on a repeat. Like, that’s what I heard all day. So I already was in a Stockholm syndrome relationship where I just think I enter this home and that’s like, oh, like her music powers the house or something is what I’m thinking. But she’s got a great voice. And also, you have to root for people who write their own stuff, you know, it’s just like the degree of difficulty is, very extreme. Now let’s get into this gay pop thing. So Jojo Siwa wants to create a genre called gay pop. Can I say something about this? I find people a bit overreactive because the fact of the matter is, obviously there have been gay pop stars and there’s, you know, you got your Tegan and Sara and they released their shady video response to Jojo Siwa stuff. To declare it specifically a genre I do think is kind of rad. Like, like, no, we belong in this thing and we’re doing a different thing than straight artists. We’re not trying to copy them. We have our own sentiments we want to share. So I’m sort of supportive of that. I don’t think she meant to say nobody’s been gay before me, though she did say that it would be very funny in the mode of like, Sam Smith being like, I’m the first queer person to it was ever even seen an Oscar who’s done anything, who’s ever gotten out of bed.

 

Ira Madison III What I think of gay pop, particularly lesbian pop. I’m thinking, do you know who’s Zolita?

 

Louis Virtel This much? But. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. Okay. She went to school with my friend, Drew. So I’ve been to, like, Zolita album releases, and, just interacted with her when I used to live in LA, and, you know, she’s got this banger single called Somebody I Fucked Once, and she is very, like, lesbian heavy. Okay. Like, is giving for mascara okay.

 

Louis Virtel All right. Yeah. See you in Portland. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So Zolita is sort of like in an adult tour version, Jojo Siwa that is giving gay pop. So if you wanna listen to some gay pop, listen to Zolita.

 

Louis Virtel Okay? By the way, this Kama song. Do you know what it reminds me of? It just hit me right now. Do you know the song are RB? Fuck you right back by Frankie.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. It’s like you’re talking about Furby. Oh. Theme song.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, nope. Also a banger. It’s got that nastiness. I’m here to be, a bit profane and in your face, in a casual way kind of vibe. Anyway. Who do you think has the the most right to be offended by the idea that gay pop is something new? Do you think there’s anybody whose reaction is like, super legitimate? Like, should Elton John be leaping to the fore here?

 

Ira Madison III No, I mean, Vincent.

 

Louis Virtel Vincent, who is great in concert and also at Barry’s, where I just see him sometimes.

 

Ira Madison III Okay, you know what? She’s always running on that treadmill. Okay. She. Vincent definitely went to the Matthew Knowles School.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Okay. Pop okay. Just like. Is he. Is he. Is he belting out tunes while on the treadmill there?

 

Louis Virtel That would be amazing.

 

Ira Madison III Running in heels.

 

Louis Virtel  Not quite.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I don’t know, like, because I feel like, you know, there’s a lot of gay pop that we have taken on.

 

Louis Virtel Gotcha. Rina Sawayama, you know. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III That’s true. Well, not recently, Hayley Kiyoko. Yeah. You know, lesbian Jesus, as it were. Yes. Maybe the lady should have more reason to be upset with Jojo, but maybe they’re a welcoming bunch.

 

Louis Virtel That could be. Yes, you would think so. Apparently there’s, like, a picture of a bunch of these people all backstage at a Fletcher concert or something, where it included Tegan and Sara. So it’s not like Jojo Siwa hasn’t met these people. Also, please. She was on, like, Dancing With the Stars and so you think You Can Dance like that? Entire crew is gay. Please.

 

Ira Madison III Backstage at a Fletcher concert. Or everyone was wearing Big Butt Press. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel You painted a vivid picture just now.

 

Ira Madison III All right. That’s all we have to say about this. But also in in the vein of me finally getting Chappell Roan. I also do want to apologize for last week when I said Flamenco on Cowboy Carter is a skip. Because unfortunately, I’m all in now.

 

Louis Virtel Wow. Well, it’s like how my tide changed on the Kacey Musgraves album. I know literally if I’m talking to somebody and they’re talking too long, I just start singing Jade green to myself. I go. I recede into a place where I entered the deeper well and then stay there. And you don’t know that spiritually I’m not in the same space as you. So anyway, apologies to Jade green from the Kacey Musgraves album Deeper Well and to flamenco from Cowboy Carter.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, well, I’m not apologizing to for the Kacey thing yet, but I’m sure I won’t hear the album eventually when I call my credit card company. And then put on hold.

 

Louis Virtel Rude.

 

Ira Madison III There’s some charges I need to talk to Chase about later today. So, I’ll get into a Deeper Well there.

 

Louis Virtel Right. Oh, God. If you’ll be. It’s a two gummies deep album, I’ll say.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. All right. When we’re back, we are joined by the fantastic Carla Gugino.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III This week’s Keep It guest has truly been an indomitable force in Hollywood for decades. From her unforgettable turns in hit series like entourage to her iconic leading role in the Spy Kids franchise. To her more recent work in Mike Flanagan’s The Fall of the House of Ssher and more recently, The Girls on the Bus. We’re so excited to welcome to Keep It the incomparable, hopefully soon to be Emmy nominated Carla Gugino.

 

Carla Gugino Hi, guys. Wow, what a beautiful introduction. Also, I feel like you gave my name, like a little extra joosh, which I really wish, Gugino, because, you know, it totally brought me back to when I was a kid. So my name is Carla Gugino, right. As you just said. But when I was a kid, I used to go with my dad a lot to Italy. My my dad’s whole side. The family’s Italian, but I don’t speak Italian, which is tragic. But, but I remember as a kid, I went there and, you know, I was introducing myself to someone, as I was told, the polite thing to do. And, I said, Carla, you. My name is Carla. It’s a Carla. Carla, I said, no, Carla. Carla Gugino. Carla. Carla Gugino. I was like.,Oh, that’s so much better. So I feel like you just gave me like the the French sort of side of that, too. So thank you. Thank you. IRA.

 

Louis Virtel No, I want to say, Carla, we will get into your the recent projects momentarily. But I have to say, when I go through your Wikipedia and I’m, of course, already acquainted with the fact that you have been in every project of all time. Like, we just know that that you are in everything. I underestimate how much your beginning is in all of these TV shows, like a lot of multicam sitcoms. Can you talk about that as a training ground for, like, this incredible career you’ve had? Do you look back on those like, this is not a multicam, but like Falcon Crest as a part of your beginnings, right. Do you look back on that time fondly or is that a particular grind you’re happy is over?

 

Carla Gugino No, I look I do really look at it fondly also because it was such a specific that those years both my age at that time, which was super young, I started as a teenager or a young teenager, and also that those, you know, Webster, who’s the boss of the Wonder Years, there were so many Doogie Howser, you know, I mean, they were all happening right then. And so it was a big I mean, I remember I got literally one line on Who’s the Boss? And I just was so excited, and, and things like the Wonder Years where Fred Savage, because he was a kid and doing, you know, a lead on a show, would have to go to school. And, I remember it was my first kissing scene in which, you know, we had it was a very demure kiss, obviously, but basically we did the master, so we did our two shot. We did his coverage, his close up, and then, it turned around on to me and I came in for my, my shot. And there was a C stand with an X on it, and I and I was meant to like, lead in and, you know, kiss the C stand because he had to go to school. So there were training around things like that that I just was. I didn’t imagine that could be possible at the time that you you lean into a C stand. But, but they were know, they were very, you know, I, I started in l.a. And I think that that was the reason why, I did start doing, you know, that was I had always when I was 13, I saw Sophie’s Choice and Silkwood in the same year.

 

Louis Virtel And 82. 83. Good time. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Carla Gugino Little little, little, little known. So. Yeah. So if you. I was actually younger now that you’re saying that, if you’re so good. See that I’m not good with the years, but that that was so if that’s the case. But I might have seen them both a year later, I guess that.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, sure. Yeah. A double feature or something.

 

Carla Gugino So in any case, I watch them both. And, and, you know, Meryl Streep, I know I’m alone and thinking she’s a great actress. But, I but what was so what’s really struck me was the fact that I saw this woman, Sophie, in this circumstance, that as a young person, I was learning so much about and the context of the horror of what was happening to her and the decisions she had to make. And then watching Silkwood, in which, you know, her characters, you know, in a power plant in which they are being poisoned. Right. And, so I picked two real light movies, but I will say that, that I, that what it gave me was, oh, I can learn through these stories about the world and people and experiences that I’ve never had. And I want to be able to do that for people. I want to see the world through different people’s eyes, and I want to be able to give the gift of empathy like I somehow I had that very strong instinct at that age. And so being on these sitcoms was definitely not my, what I ultimately wanted to do. But I was so thrilled to be a working actor to get jobs. The Falcon Crest mentioned is actually kind of significant because I was a really good student. I moved around a ton in my childhood, and I think you either become like, school just doesn’t matter to you, and you’re not very good, or it’s the one constant you have everywhere you go, which for me ended up being the case. So I was a really good student. And, a little too serious, probably. But, I, so basically I was going to go I went and did, you know, university tours and I was planning on going to university, etc., and I got this series regular role on Falcon Crest, and I was 17 and I was just like, wow, this is a big job. And this is kind of a significant amount of money at that time as well. And you know what? I want to do this and then I will ultimately go to university, which I never ended up doing. But it was a job that was very significant for a number of reasons. One, I was also able that in true Beverly Hills, which was just before that, I was able to make enough money to sort of be like on my own. And I got emancipated at 16, so I didn’t have to have adults on set with me. And, and, because that’s, you know, it’s a pain for them.

 

Louis Virtel I always wonder about that. That sounds like a fate worse than death to have, like, adults lingering around drugs or trying to work. Yeah.

 

Carla Gugino Or or being the adult lingering, I think. Yeah. So I’ve worked with so many kids, you know, that you end up and there are some incredible parents who really have devoted their lives to that. And I really admire that ability, but I definitely I don’t think I had the people in my life for that, nor was I the person for it, you know, like, I was like, I can kind of do my own thing and, but, but Falcon Crest was really funny about it is that, you know, that was the age of like, they would spray your body with, with, like, body makeup. And, it was like there was a full body makeup artist full time for everybody. I played, Sydney Saint James, who was a virgin bride who killed my husband with a letter opener. So it was all very appropriate for nighttime soap. But I do remember I got, called where they wanted me to work with an acting teacher that some of the other actors were working on because they thought my work was too subtle.

 

Louis Virtel Wow.

 

Carla Gugino And and at that point, I thought, maybe this isn’t my. Specifically, you know.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Jane Wyman was going for broke on that show, you know?

 

Carla Gugino Totally. By the way, you know, sometimes it is just go big or go home. I mean, that is, you know, I understood that that was the beast.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, I’m the soap connoisseur here, and I need Falcon Crest to be streaming immediately. I’m sure you would love those residuals too, but I’m like, I’ve seen, you know, I’ve done all like, Dynasty and Dallas and then, you know, I’m like, Knots Landing. I’m like, I need Falcon Crest.

 

Carla Gugino Yeah. What happened to Falcon Crest? We need to get on that. That’s our new mission.

 

Ira Madison III We need to go to the Napa Valley. We need it. We need it out.

 

Carla Gugino You know Lorenzo Lamas, I mean.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, yes. What’s funny is you were talking about, even just working with kids on set. And now as we’re moving forward through, you know, your filmography, what was it like, I guess, as an actor, working in projects as a kid, and then working on projects as an adult and mostly working with adults, too, then jumping into something like Spy Kids? And I can’t imagine that you thought that this movie and franchise would take off the way that it had. Even now, I feel like Spy Kids is just an iconic series for particularly millennials like me and Louis. Like, people are always bringing that series up. People are always dressing in it. And at Halloween and stuff like, it’s had such a life, that you maybe didn’t expect when you were just making it.

 

Carla Gugino Yeah. No, it was, it was such a what was so cool about that movie is that it was Robert Rodriguez. It was his vision. It we did in Austin, Texas. It felt very much like a tiny movie that we were making, you know, I think that actually the reason it became so successful and the reason that it kind of set the bar on a different level for family movies because it was one of the first family movies that was. Well, it was it was like multicultural, but it was also, the parents were cool and kind of sexy, and the kids were the heroes. And like, there was a like it was a definitely a different it was getting away from sort of the more, even though I guess it technically was a nuclear family, quote unquote. It was it was getting away from sort of these tropes that we were all like, oh, a family movie has to be this. And, and so I think all of that was, was but it never came from the outside. It never was like, oh, we’re going to do this as a concept or this is what the algorithm is saying, or this was literally Robert’s vision. And I came into it late, like two weeks into shooting. I had done a movie before that, the David Frankel directed with Sarah Jessica Parker and a bunch of other amazing people called Miami Rhapsody, and Antonio Banderas was in that. And so I was finishing I was playing a neurosurgeon on Chicago Hope, and, I got a call, and it was basically saying, Robert Rodriguez would love to meet with you for, and this was obviously not an era of zoom in any way. So he was like, I want to meet with you, for the role of the white of the mother in Spy Kids. And, I mean, guys, I was 27, so I was way too young for the role. You know, I was like, supposed to have been like a five for ten years and then had, you know, kids who are nine and 11 and, but it came about in the craziest way. And I’ve told this story before, so I will tell it quickly, but it’s actually pertinent to your question, which is that I had done a Christmas movie for hallmark called season for miracles. And, and there was there was a young kid in it who was amazing, and he had a twin brother. They don’t look anything like the the twin brother turns out to be who played Junie in Spy Kids. So they were on set, shooting and, they knocked on Robert’s door and someone else had been cast in the role. And they got pregnant, and then they were. So there were all these things, and I was never on a list because I was way too young. And so they said they brought a tape, a VHS tape to his trailer door and said, this is who we want to be. The mom. And Robert, who is like, famously A.D.D. and, you know, doesn’t watch a whole thing of anything, ended up watching it and going, God, she’s really good, but she is really young. And then he saw he said he saw the Q&A after, and he was like, and you were very mature in your answers and everything. So I think we might be able to get away with this. And so anyway, I took a redeye to New York to meet him there. And, it was kind of contingent, like, if the meeting goes, well, you might get the job because they’re shooting and we got to get you to Austin to shoot. And, I didn’t know. I didn’t know how you know, how real that was or wasn’t. And then on the plane, someone came up to me and said, are you Carla Gugino? Which at this point would be a normal thing to happen because I’ve been doing this for a long time, but at that point was not. And it was the costume designer and they had sent her to get me wardrobe. So I was like, wow, I think I might get this thing. And then that was from then, you know, from then on, it was the most amazing experience. I love them, I love doing all of them, and I love Robert Rodriguez so much and obviously did SimCity with him after that.

 

Ira Madison III Amazing director, I love.

 

Louis Virtel Of course.

 

Ira Madison III Robert Rodriguez. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel I have to add also, it’s like even just the credits you’ve mentioned now. Like, I think it would blow an average person’s mind to realize somebody was on both Who’s the Boss and the movie American Gangster. Just like the sheer amount of breadth of what you do. I’m curious, like, has that been obviously you work nonstop, so it appears to be only working for you, but is it for an actor who has such, seemingly casual versatility, like have, do you have to like, fight to be like to get into a room because you’re so capable of doing anything? You know, it’s not like like for example, some, some people are character actors and I think of them as one type of role. So they’re always going to be at the front of the list for a certain type of role. Is it sometimes a hindrance to you to be so versatile?

 

Carla Gugino I really appreciate that question. You know, it’s funny, I think there’s there’s a flip side to every coin. Right. And, and I did from a very early age, just want to be a transformational actor that could disappear into things, and people could just believe that and, and, and be less known as a brand or, type or, particular character. And, I think it it’s interesting because I think for a while just you mentioned a couple of the roles, or you could be like the lesbian parole officer in Sin City and the neurosurgeon in Chicago Hope, or like the, you know, the, you know, the criminal in or the porn star and Electrolux or like you, you know, they they definitely I think for a while people were, confused and, and it was hard to kind of figure out, oh, what is she and what does she do exactly? Or, you know, and I feel like over time, maybe one of the advantages of the fact that I’m sort of like in the second half of my life now, which is so surreal to even say, is that that’s been recognized as a body of work and recognized as, you know, versatile as you said. So thank you so much. And, and, and so I would I think there’s an it’s an interesting question because I think the quote unquote, you could do anything which is such a generous statement. And what is what I, you know, I want to be doing this till the day that I die. And I hope that I’ve so many more roles I want to play, you know. So, but it also is, I think, confusing because you’re not like, oh, she’s that type or she’s this thing or she’s, you know, and so not being able to be pinned down was very intentional, mostly for myself, because I just will bore myself if I’m doing the same thing over and again. And, and I don’t know why acting for me has to be I have to be open to something, some larger creative urge or, connection in order to feel like I can do good work. I’ve never really been great at, just going in and doing a job, and I really admire people who do that, and I feel that, of course, I’ve done jobs that are harder than others and challenging and some more fun and some less fun, of course, but I always have to sort of come at it from, oh, this is what I think I can do with that one. Let me see if I can let me give myself that challenge. So I think by nature that’s drawn me to different kinds of roles.

 

Ira Madison III And, you know, your roles of, you know, largely been you started with comedies and then you’ve done a lot of dramas, and thrillers. But, I feel like, you linking up with Mike Flanagan for, you know, his series. You’ve done three of them at this point. Was this sort of your first real foray into horror? And, like, like, was it something that really interested you, especially since I feel like you were coming up at a time where you could have done a bunch of horror movies if you wanted to.

 

Carla Gugino Right? Yeah. I’ve never gravitated towards horror specifically. It’s not a it’s by the way, I love like The Shining is one of my top three favorite movies of all time, so I’ve always loved any genre done well. And so that’s why, again, I wasn’t really particularly a comic book graphic novel person. But then, you know, with Watchmen or Sin City or various things like that, I became that’s the other such a cool thing about acting. And, and I feel so grateful for it, is that I learn about I end up doing a bunch of research on stuff that I wouldn’t have necessarily focused on, you know, but in, in in any case, what was interesting with with Mike is that we met, for this, we did a movie before we did the series, those three series together. We did a movie called Gerald’s Game, which was an adaptation of Stephen King.

 

Ira Madison III Yes.

 

Louis Virtel Shivers running down my spine. Even as you just say the words Gerald’s Game. We’ll get into this in a second. Go ahead.

 

Carla Gugino And that was where Bruce Greenwood and I met. And what’s really funny is that I came into that very late because someone else was cast on that, and then they had to drop out, and so little did I know, I had this meeting with Mike via. At that point, it was face time resume. I kept the Muslim face down and, and he, I didn’t know because he played it really cool. He was location scouting, but like, if I hadn’t decided to do it, I think the movie would have ultimately on the part just because of the time frame. But what was wild was that Bruce was already attached to that. And then with the House of usher, Bruce ended up coming in late, as someone else had to exit. So it was such a wild. Both of us, I think, had less than two weeks to prep for our roles, in those things. And, and I always appreciate an actor who’s into jumping into the deep end, you know, that quickly. But, but. Yeah, but so, so basically, when I spoke to Mike and, you know, Gerald’s Game, then, so you know that I. There’s nowhere to hide, literally or metaphorically. And I was like, this will either be something really interesting to explore or possibly the, you know, like the end of my career. If I don’t if I don’t do my work well because it’s it’s just, you know, there’s no where, you know, there’s it. And it was also considered one of Stephen King’s impossible to adapt novel. So, so for all those reasons, it was and but I you guys, I mean, I spoke to Mike, it was took me maybe, maybe five minutes. And I was like, this guy is extremely smart, gentle hearted, this kind of, like, perfectionist, but in a way, that attention to detail that I appreciate so much because generally, if a filmmaker has that kind of attention to detail and that specific vision, it also means that they’re actually very collaborative because they don’t have anything to defend against. You know, they know that any ideas that come their way will only make the thing better. So, I’ve always found that the most confident filmmakers are actually the most collaborative, which is interesting because I think some people, you know, if you get a really resistant filmmaker, like someone who’s not collaborative, it’s generally because they’re kind of scared. So Mike, right away was just, I thought, I want to help this guy bring his vision to the screen. I just, I want to come and help do that. And, it’s true that we’ve it’s been such a natural, collaboration that I’m so grateful for. I mean, I, I really I have so much gratitude for, for the roles that I’ve been able to, to bring to life with him.

 

Louis Virtel I want to say in a follow up way about Gerald’s Game, I just feel like for those of us who are like obsessed with actresses, want actresses to be able to do amazing things on the screen all the time. It’s one of those rare movies where it almost feels like someone just set out an obstacle course for you. They’re like, here’s all the things you won’t be able to do now. Make it compelling. You know? It’s like, because, like, a lot of what you have to do is not in the dialog, or it’s not even in the gruesomeness of the movie. It’s like it all has to read on your face. So you’re talking about like, the differences in difficulties with all these projects you’ve done, would you consider that one of the harder projects you’ve done? It looks like it must have been utterly strenuous.

 

Carla Gugino Yeah. No, no, it was it was crazy. It was also just like a very specific, challenge, which was, you know, we shot it and I think 25 days, I mean, it was shot extremely quickly. So there was also like, no room for and, you know, and because of that, we had a little mini, crane, one of those mini great little mini cranes that can get into nooks and crannies in that room in the basic kind of like it was almost like a one act play. Right. And that’s the other thing is that starting in my early 30s, I, I did some theater work before, but in my early 30s, Broadway and proper, you know, I ended up doing several of the classics, which was such an amazing experience, in theater. So that really fed me for that job because we would, you know, we would be shooting huge chunks at the same time. I would be the two alternate versions of the character, you know, one right after the other. So it was definitely, you know, they say that that. Did you guys ever read was it in blink? I’m trying to think what book it was. About 10,000 hours. Like once you’ve done something for 10,000 hours, there’s something about your innate instinct that kicks in that you don’t even know consciously. They did it. They gave, like, an example of a firefighter who, you know, there was like, ran into the building and basically in a flat a second, he just was like, get out now. But there wasn’t anything that could you could see that was different in the second they got out the building collapse. And they said, what made you know that? And he was like, I don’t know, instinct. You know, I’ve been in enough burning houses that. But he didn’t have a reason. And and so I do think in that moment of Gerald’s Game, I really did feel like my, you know, 20 plus years at that point of, of experience, on stage and on the screen allowed me to just kind of get to work. But it was it was a challenge every moment. And it was actually kind of funny because, you know, I did that. And then obviously, you know, The Haunting of Hill House was a challenging role in a different way. And that one was wild because we shot it over so many months that I kind of had to keep Olivia Crane on the back burner at all time. And, you know, she’s she’s like, losing her mind. So that was a challenge to to sort of, like, not lose my mind in life as well. And then Bly Manor was just super fun because that was a quick one that I came and popped into. But it was funny because when he asked me about the Raven in the house of usher, you know, he said, you’re not you do not have to have handcuffs. Like, I’m not going to, torture you in any way. You will you will, however, incarnate a monkey. You will, you know, like. And then the list went on of, like, all of the, the, amazing challenges of getting to play Verna. So, yeah, I do feel like he has challenged me at every turn, and that is exactly what I want, so.

 

Ira Madison III You brought up your stage experience. First of all, you’ve been in a couple of my favorite plays. You know, Suddenly Last Summer, Desire Under the Elms. Were. And you were in that play with Blythe Danner.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes.

 

Carla Gugino Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III So what excites you about theater? I guess because, you know, you’ve done three iconic productions. I think you also did After the Fall. I did not see that production. Unfortunately, I did see like It when it debuted in Chicago, though.

 

Carla Gugino Yeah. Oh you did?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah. The Goodman version.

 

Carla Gugino That’s amazing.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Carla Gugino That’s so cool, Ira, that’s so cool just because I feel like that’s the amazing thing about theater, right, is that you were either there or you weren’t there, and it’s never to be seen again.

 

Ira Madison III You know, just sort of what excites you about theater as opposed to, you know, all the, your work in film and television?

 

Carla Gugino You know, it’s such a strange thing to have started in film and television just by the nature of the beast. My my aunt, Carol Merrill lived in Los Angeles, and I had gone to do some modeling in New York.

 

Louis Virtel I got people I know, Carol Merrill. It was the model on Let’s Make a Deal. She was like the original Vanna White, in a way, before Vanna White happened.

 

Carla Gugino Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah. With Monty Hall. Yeah. And she was a such an advocate for me as an actor and was my manager for a short period of time. And really the reason that I ended up kind of starting in Los Angeles, I had been in New York doing a brief little modeling foray, which I didn’t end up, feeling like was for me. Also, I’m 55, so it was it was a little petite, and, but I came back and so, so so in any case, what was amazing is that when I got the role in After the Fall, the role of Maggie, who’s based on Marilyn, I, I was, I knew everything, not everything. What? I knew how to act, but I didn’t know the ins and outs of Broadway or the theater world in New York in the sense of like, oh, this is what a Thursday night audience is like. Or, oh, the people in the orchestra under the balcony that you really have to get it to them, or else they won’t hear, you know, or these kinds of things. And Michael Mayer directed us in that. And he’s an extraordinary director. And so I was in really good hands and had such an amazing cast around me. But, I had this sort of incredible moment of stepping onto those boards and being like, this is home for me. This is I want this to be a huge part of my life for the rest of my life. And I think that, part of it is, that theater is an actor’s medium, you know, film and television are is a director’s medium, and, and and it doesn’t mean that it’s not an incredible opportunity for actors to, to shine. But, you know, we give it away and we we do our thing, and they either make it better or worse or, you know, somehow, you know, in the in the editing process and the way, you know, so you don’t know what the outcome will be. Whereas in theater, for better or worse, I mean, it’s terrifying as as we all know, to, to step onto a stage in front of a live audience and, and go, here we go, and you’re with us till the end. But it’s so exhilarating. I’ll never forget a moment in suddenly last summer. Blythe is still a dear, dear friend. I literally just spoke to her yesterday, and. And, it’s extraordinary, obviously actress to work with. But, I’ll never forget. So there was a moment in that, you know, playing Catherine, who, as you know, is has been getting like, shock therapy and, and, so she’s, she’s she’s not in a great place mentally. But we’re on stage and I’m in the middle of a monologue and I go completely blank. But when I say, like, black, like nothing, and I look and the cast, the cast is like looking at me, you know, waiting. And I’m sure it’s like a seven seconds. It feels like an eternity. And I remember in that moment. Instead, I was like, I can’t leave my body like like, you know. Part of you just wants to run, right? But I’m like, I know, okay, so let me just drop in and see if anything comes. And I dropped in and in a second. I went, where was I? And that was my line. And that was my line as the character. And what happened to me was that I understood something from that moment on that changed my entire performance of that character, which was when she would forget something. It wasn’t like any of us forgetting something where you’re like, oh shit, I forgot something. It was actually the the if she seemed crazy or if she wasn’t because she’s literally making a case for herself she was going to get they were going to send her to shock therapy and back to an institution. So the terror that hit her in forgetting was something I got completely, viscerally in that moment, and it just changed the stakes for me of that entire performance. So it was such a incredible gift, but absolutely terrifying. You know, it wasn’t like you could just say like, hey, can we get another take now, you know? So it was amazing.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, that’s so revelatory. And also, yeah, it really was. I’m sure you can only handle like 3 or 4 moments like that and you’re in your stage carreer.

 

Carla Gugino Exactly.

 

Louis Virtel So at least that one was productive.

 

Carla Gugino I don’t want to replay that too many times. Exactly.

 

Louis Virtel I, we should mention, Girls on the Bus where you play, you’re in a pack of, women journalists. This is based on a book about, journalists following Hillary Clinton around, about a decade ago. I love you in this role because I am obsessed with, people who seem like real journalists in movies. Like one that comes to mind is I love Marisa Tomei in the movie The Ides of March. There’s this like a, there’s a quality about like women journalists.

 

Carla Gugino That like is fantastic in that.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Like over years, like, I don’t know, it’s like I love seeing, like, the hardened professionals, I don’t know, like, Faye Dunaway. A network is like the gross version, but, like, I love people like that who are just committed to the story, etc.. What did you feel you could bring to this project? It feels like such a natural fit for you. You’re so fabulous on the show.

 

Carla Gugino Oh, thank you so much. You know, it was interesting. It’s interesting the moment when you realize, oh, right, I’m the I’m the elder, seasoned one. Really? I’m there. Oh, I guess that is me. But, but, you know, I, I think the thing that really interested me in, in that particular, role is the way that Amy chose, like, who did, who wrote, you know, chasing Hillary, even though this is, as you’ve seen, a fictitious campaign and, was was the idea that I said, I’m there. Great lines. She’s quick witted. She’s, you know, she has a very unusual a she she really does prioritize her work and always has. And for her, that’s her calling in life. And now she’s actually dealing with the ramifications of what that’s done to her daughter and her husband. And, and, and I really was really interested, not because I think we all make sacrifices for what’s important to us and the idea that we can do it all, quote unquote, is used a lot for women, but also for men. It’s just human beings. We think, you know, it’s like you can do it all, but you can’t do it all. Great. You’re going to have to like, make some decisions and some things are going to be compromised for it, and you’re gonna have to deal with those ramifications. So I found that a really interesting aspect of this character. And also that I said to Amy, I said, you know, I don’t want to play her just like this salty kind of like, that feels like something we’ve seen before and against with this kind of cliche. And it’s a cliche for a reason. But I, I’m interested in her. Kind of like big heart underneath there. The fact that when she sees talent, she’s, you know, like, I love her relationship with Lola, with Natasha Benham character because Lola is a, you know, TikTok reporter. And for Grace, this character, I mean, TikTok and journalism together is just an absolute no go, right? Like, she’s just like on a fundamental level, philosophically, I don’t understand it. And yet she then sees that, you know, Lola has got the goods. Lola is curious. Lola is bold, Lola smart. Lola is a critical thinker. And so I found all of those things surprising about the character, and that was really what I was interested in sort of showing was, you know, the complexity of what it is to have come from a different time where she witnessed things being done very differently. But I think what keeps her at the top of her game is her remaining curiosity.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you so much for being here, Carla. I have one last thing I want to ask you, because you’ve worked with one of my favorite directors who is just sort of his mind is out there, and I just need to know, like, what you remember about being on the set of Snake Eyes with Brian De Palma?

 

Louis Virtel Oh, my God, of course. Yes.

 

Carla Gugino Well, everything I remember, because I’m also a massive De Palma fan, before I worked with him and after, and Nic Cage, Gary Sinise, you know, I was, I it was such an amazing cast of people. Well, what I will remember, I mean, I’ll just tell you one great, amazing sort of moment for me, which you being a DePalma fan will appreciate. So that first shot of the movie, you know, is, is all it was being shown in film. So it was one reel of film and, and they kept having you cut. Any time you know something would happen on the way with Nick up the escalator and all of that stuff. And, by the time they got to me in the huge arena with all the people, because this was also like real people, there were no, you know, there was no CGI done later. It’s supposed to come to me. I’m in a white little suit with, like, a platinum blond wig. So diploma. And I was like, I’m in a double my movie. Look at me. And, and. And I’m supposed to, you know, when I come in, have a line and then, end up being shot. So I have a squib on me. So there’s also, like this pressure of. And I need to. And because no one can signal me because it’s too loud. I have to have a visual cue for when the gunshot would have happened, so I can respond to it and respond and then, you know, put my hand or basically to my shoulder because I’m, being hit there. So but if the as soon as the camera gets got to me, I was obviously terrified because it had gone really well until then, clearly because they were still rolling and I it was that moment where you think, well, I forget how to take a step. Well, I forget how to do the basic things, you know, thankfully I didn’t it worked. We did it. But I looked over and I thought I got the physical cue, which I didn’t, it turns out. And so I went to put my hand on the squib as it exploded, and it took off just a tiny little tip of my little thing, like, like very, but very small. But yeah, but it was, it was an injury. But it was, it was more the fact that, I, you know, I sort of had done it. All right. And then this one moment happened, which, by the way, I think probably looks very real on camera. But, but it was the moment, to your point, about to palm. It was the moment where I was in a blond wig with, you know, this white outfit. And I go into the bathroom and I’m wearing this white bra and I’m, like, cleaning blood from myself. So it was exactly the iconic DePalma image. And in that moment, I thought, how cool is this? That I have been a fan of this person for so long? He’s supposedly, you know, filming as famously as Hitchcock, you know, with Hitchcock as well. His least favorite part, because Brian is much more he loves the prep and he loves post because he’s so technical and he’s not, you know. But it is. But for whatever reasons, he was amazing to film with. I mean, he was an incredible he was a wonderful director who was super present for us. And so I feel somehow like I also got him in his least favorite part of the process. And I was an amazing part of the process. So, that was a really cool movie to do.

 

Louis Virtel A grisly hand injury that early on you were playing Gerald’s Game well before Gerald’s Game was even on.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, exactly.

 

Louis Virtel That’s why you want a sense memory. Yes.

 

Carla Gugino Right, exactly.

 

Ira Madison III Well, thank you so much for being here. It was really great to talk to you.

 

Carla Gugino Likewise. It’s such a great show, and I’m so happy to come and chat with you.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Come back whenever we. We got to, like, one of your filmography. So we’ll get to the other 54 part soon.

 

Carla Gugino I really appreciate it. Let’s Keep It going. Okay? Let’s just make this a continuous conversation, all right? A beautiful day.

 

Ira Madison III You too, and when we’re back, keep more, Keep It.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III And we’re back with more Keep It. During our break. Louis told me that he was sent, a song by a friend by Chung Ha, who is a K-pop star. We’re going to talk about her some day on this show because I have been obsessed with her. She. She used to be sort of like the, K-pop. Tinashe. Oh, okay. If you look up some of her older videos, like snapping, and flourishing, she was really, like, giving it to the girls.

 

Louis Virtel This came out at some pre game and I was transfixed, like, I, I stopped participating in whatever conversation we were in about, you know, Jojo Siwa and I got right into this woman. I’m really excited for her.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Any minute is a great song. I’m her new one. And revisit her, other discography. You will definitely become a fan of Chung Ha, but right now we’re going to talk about Sex and the City. It’s back.

 

Louis Virtel And a lot of Netflix culture is actually happening right now. But Sex and the City is now. By the way, if you’ve had trouble watching the original Sex and the City, like, open a book, I’m sorry. It’s like every week. It’s like it’s very easy to watch every time I’m on a plane I’m watching this fucking show.

 

Ira Madison III Weren’t you on a previous episode describing someone asking, what should I watch on HBO?

 

Louis Virtel Right. It’s like they have a whole app for this. You can. There’s a menu. It’s like. It’s like a quilt of choices you can look at.

 

Ira Madison III But as it were, Netflix has, I guess maybe I don’t know if Netflix has a bigger audience than HBO in general. Maybe. Now, I feel like David Zaslav has just been, murdering, HBO subscribers in their homes. He really wants that shit to fail.

 

Louis Virtel He had such a good time picking off, people on the striking line. He was like, I’m going to go into people’s homes next.

 

Ira Madison III But, now that it’s on Netflix, it has an entirely new audience, and people are digesting, the series in a new way. People who’ve never seen it before. The reaction I’m finding the funniest. It comes from Doctor Heavenly. She is a cast member on Married to Medicine. Bravo. She has been watching the series and live tweeting it.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, I do have to say my number one Twitter pet peeve is when people start live tweeting something that not the rest of us are watching. Or they get to a TV show nine months late or something. Catch up, be a part of the conversation we’re already having. You’re not that important.

 

Ira Madison III Okay, so first of all, she’s referring to the series as Sex in the City, which is very common. I feel like amongst black people I know. I used to think the show was called Sex in the City. And I feel like people tweeted at her to change the hashtag to Sex and the City, but people have been calling it Sex in the City for 20 years. I don’t think so. Like you should be used to it by now.

 

Louis Virtel It’s kind of like, yeah, Sex in the City. That’s where we’re having it.

 

Ira Madison III Okay, first of all, what you should know about Doctor Heavenly is she has a husband that she refers to as daddy.

 

Louis Virtel Same relatable.

 

Ira Madison III Your heart belongs to him, right?

 

Louis Virtel Betty Davis culture. Thank you. That actually, that’s kind of what Chappell Roan looks like when, Betty Davis in Whatever Happened To Baby Jane, now that you mention it. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah. She does.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, it’s kind of that vibe. Yeah. Like chalky makeup. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Okay. You know what? And then she starts a feud with Jojo Siwa, and Jojo becomes very Joan Crawford. Then we’ve got it.

 

Louis Virtel Are we Scooter Braun? We’re just like, let’s run this whole thing.

 

Ira Madison III Done it. Keep It records. So doctor heavily refers to her husband as daddy. She’s always extolling the virtues of being a good wife. Pleasing your man. Funny. So this is where she’s coming from? Yeah. With her tweets. I’m going to give you just a few of them. Right. I tried to watch Sex and the City. Ain’t no way any woman is sleeping with that many men.

 

Louis Virtel Excuse me? Like, physically. Like it’s a scientific improbability. What!

 

Ira Madison III Okay. Samantha is a whore. She needs to get paid.

 

Louis Virtel She’s already making a lot of money. She’s very successful. That’s the foundation on which she is a whore. I feel like this is explained very quickly on the show.

 

Ira Madison III Right. Okay. Miranda got chlamydia. These women are too fast not to use protection. And in this instance, she tweeted, hashtag be safe. Hashtag not judging.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. Not true. One and two. Using the word fast to describe a woman that is very funny. Little red Corvette culture.

 

Ira Madison III I can’t believe she went back to Mr. Big.

 

Louis Virtel All right, she’s getting into the themes of the series now. Yeah, Carrie makes a lot of mistakes.

 

Ira Madison III Let’s see. She wrote. Charlotte finally gets married and our surgeon husband can’t perform, SMH. This is getting depressing.

 

Louis Virtel Now? Jesus Christ. I thought all the sex was depressing you to begin with.

 

Ira Madison III That’s just her most recent tweets. She’s gotten so far in the series that where she says, okay, so they are all single again.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. But I think when you get to seasons five and six, that’s when it becomes actual. Four is the best season, but when you get to five and six and you finish it up, I think the show becomes something of a legend to you. This woman will not give up this show. It will become an it will be an important part of her life. Ultimately.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So I will continue to monitor Dr. Heavenly live tweets. She’s also just a funny person on Twitter in general. She. Doctor heavenly, she is a dentist. And someone tweeted at her the other day. Please, doctor Heavenly, help me fix my teeth. You’ll be doing some real amazing work. But I’m a starving artist and I can’t afford implants. And she quote tweeted it with get a side job, baby.

 

Louis Virtel All right, now I’m a fan. All right. Okay. There’s other things going on on Netflix though. I want to bring up first Ripley, which is stars Andrew Scott playing the familiar role, you know, from The Talented Mr. Ripley, once played by Matt Damon. This time, it’s a limited series. It’s based on the works of Patricia Highsmith, who wrote, The Price of Salt, which became the movie Carol. Fabulous lesbian authoress. I will say this about the show. First of all, it’s in black and white. And not just any black and white. It is prestige, black and white. The cinematographer is the guy who won an Oscar for there Will Be Blood. But maybe the more relevant reference here is good night and good luck. Sharp black and white cinematography.

 

Ira Madison III It looks gorgeous. Yes.

 

Louis Virtel It gives you none of the glamor of The Talented Mr. Ripley. And to be honest, I kind of thought that’s why we were into this story. You know, to see the beautiful people. So a part of me is almost disappointed. But the approach is so austere. And Andrew Scott, his approach to the character and the character itself is a bit different where he is calculating from the jump. He’s not somebody who’s, like, formulating the plan as he goes along to ingratiate himself and Dickie Greenleaf, fabulous Italian life. He’s he’s like a calculating psychopath, basically. And it’s fun to watch that on his face because I just believe it. Coming from Andrew Scott, who has a glint in his eye that you cannot teach.

 

Ira Madison III A lesson, it doesn’t have the glamor. The 1999 film. And you start out just in, like, nasty in 1961 Bowery, New York. Well, it’s it’s this is not what I want to see. First of all, just in terms of Talented Mr. Ripley. But it does hook you, and I am. Into the series in a way, but I feel like one and every one of us discussed this. This man is too old to be playing Ripley.

 

Louis Virtel It’s a little weird. I mean, he’s like 47 or something. And it does feel like in order for this plotting to work, there has to be a kind of enigmatic X-Factor about him in a youngish way. Like, I don’t really know why these people would be a bit transfixed by him, but I think they’re on to him sooner than they are in the movie. But it doesn’t quite add up.

 

Ira Madison III But also, Johnny Flynn, who plays Dickie in the series, is 41, so they’ve aged up Dickie as well.

 

Louis Virtel He does not look 41 to me.

 

Ira Madison III They’ve aged him up, but this man sends Ripley to look for his son Dickie, out in Europe. And I’m like, are you worried about where your 40 year old son is a girl? Yeah. Come on. Like, what are we doing here?

 

Louis Virtel Fuck, yeah. Get something else to do. He’s gone. We’ve lost him.

 

Ira Madison III And then you got Dakota Fanning running around.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. It’s nice to see her. I like her performance restraint.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel I always have a problem with the Fanning’s where it’s still feels like they’re 16 years old. Like, I am positive that Elle Fanning was in the movie somewhere in the year of 2011, but I still think that means she’s 14. I don’t know how it works.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, but age aside, my main problem with the series is that it is slow as fuck it.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, it’s taking its time. I mean, it’s giving you the adapted from a book version of The Talented Mr. Ripley. You know, not one thing is sped up. Even the murder, which I don’t think that’s spoiling anything to say, like there’s a murder in the book is done here in a way where they really take their time leading up to it, through it. I can only compare it, actually, to the original movie, psycho, where it’s about a murder occurred. And now these really kind of mundane steps afterwards have to be taken by this character in order to clean it up. You know?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I would say that one of my least favorite things, I guess, about adaptations to TV versus film is that. We’re in this era of prestige television where things are just. Take it too damn long. You know, I’m watching the first episode of Ripley and I’m like, can we get the story going? Yeah. You know, let’s get into why I’m like here to watch this. And it’s giving this vibe of just sort of like hang out TV and vibes. You’re just sitting there and letting it wash all over you. And that’s why you get through all six episodes. But I’m like, I want to be excited to watch the next episode. You know? I don’t want it to just sort of like, roll along casually.

 

Louis Virtel I also want to say like the impeccable photography. I mean, it looks almost like a Cologne ad in motion, you know, just like the sharpness of the black and white photography. And I feel like because the plot moves along slowly, that photographic technique feels almost overt, like overcompensating, like, this is how we’re going to make it engrossing while the plot is moving at this slow clip. Which reminds me, by the way, I’ve already brought up Hitchcock. Apparently, David Fincher now is going to direct a remake of strangers on a train for Netflix. Now. Excuse me? His last movie, The Killer. All killer, no filler. Bitch. That movie was a slay until the Swinton in her one scene. Like being somebody who’s, like, being marched off to death. Fabulous. I obviously watched David Fincher do anything. The man directed the Vogue music video in his 20s. I don’t believe heterosexuals should have that kind of power. I don’t understand how it works.

 

Ira Madison III But now who’s involved in this one? I so because I remember in 2015, Ben Affleck was supposed to be doing it with.

 

Louis Virtel Venture, who was very a Hitchcockian protagonist kind of actor. Like, there’s, there’s an August ness to Ben Affleck, but also something very, very wrong, you know, like he’s fitting for that. If it were Ben Affleck, I wouldn’t be surprised. But I don’t believe it’s been, officially announced yet. That said, obviously there have been remakes of strangers on a train before Throw Momma from the train with Danny DeVito and the Fabulous and Ramsey, nominated 1987, one of three and nominated for Best Supporting actress that year.

 

Ira Madison III The Goonies.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Yes. I mean, probably better known from The Goonies, but, that has been remade before, but I think we should take a moment just to say certain things should not be remade, and let’s voice them into existence so that in case these people listen, to Keep It and, you know, crazier things have happened, maybe they will Keep It in mind and not remake certain things. For instance, I know we tried with Christopher Reeve. You better not be remaking Rear Window ever fucking again. I don’t want you making the attempt. That is from his Grace Kelly. It’s from. It’s Thelma Ritter. It’s for Jimmy Stewart.

 

Ira Madison III I forgot about the Christopher Reeve real run down.

 

Louis Virtel Daryl Hannah got to be the, Grace Kelly part, and I will still take to the streets. Excuse me. For 20 years.

 

Ira Madison III You know, I have been a long advocate for a remake of Marnie.

 

Louis Virtel Right? Well, because there’s a lot that’s, shall we say, dated about that film. So it it could be good for a reboot I wrote if. What is what is your number one? Don’t remake this motherfucking thing. Thing?

 

Ira Madison III Well, I mean, we could stick on Hitchcock for a minute. I do not think rope ever needs to be remade.

 

Louis Virtel And you know that’s fucking coming. Please. Something that has queer subtext. Why don’t we blow up the subtext in a fucking mini series? Here we go.

 

Ira Madison III Ryan Murphy’s rope.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I mean, well, now I’m physically ill. It’s going to be. It’s going to be odd to throw up on camera, but I’m going to do it. I still think Ryan Murphy should do Madonna’s life story. I think he’s the right person for it. But anyway.

 

Ira Madison III Know when I think of things that shouldn’t ever be remade. I mean, like, they’re coming from the theater.

 

Louis Virtel Sure.

 

Ira Madison III I’m used to just, like, seeing different productions or something, so I never opposed.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of a remake. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III But I feel like you need to come in with a point of view. You know, even Gus Van Sant with Psycho, I respect it. I respect what he wanted to do there. You know.

 

Louis Virtel I think that actually, the number one thing that does not need to be remade are perfectly timed comedies, because why try to recreate it still holds up like, don’t remake airplane! Yeah. I think that’s maybe my number one. Like, why would you do that? It also belongs exactly in that era. You know, like, yeah, following all of those disaster movies, the intrigue of being on an airplane feels very of that time.

 

Ira Madison III I will actually agree with you that most comedies do not need to be remade, mostly because so many comedies, are just very, like you said, specific to their time.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Making fun of the moors of the time, too. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So, you know, if you’re remaking, say, I don’t know, like when Harry met Sally, the conversations happening in that film are very different now. Just make a different movie.

 

Louis Virtel Totally. Totally. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III You could still make a film about, you know, can men and women be friends or whatever, you know, but don’t remake when Harry met Sally?

 

Louis Virtel No. Make your little attempts with movies like No Strings Attached are that other one that came out the same year. That was the same story. But yeah, right. You don’t need more of that.

 

Ira Madison III In terms of Patricia Highsmith, though. You know what? I would have been fully on board with a price of Salt Limited series.

 

Louis Virtel That to me does because like Carol is very condensed. That’s very condensed. Yes. Just to see price of salt expand. And so many people would be fabulous in those roles. Yeah I would love to see that too.

 

Ira Madison III But honestly, I think that like a lot of Hitchcock thrillers could kind of be remade. I think it would be very fun to see sort of like a North by Northwest. Well, you know, or 39 steps remain in the vein of, you know, the sort of like Tom cruise thrillers that we have now.

 

Louis Virtel If it would get us enamored of beautiful photography again, I think that’s like a high bar to clear, because we’re so used to everything being sensational looking that we feel almost, inured to some of the things that made Hitchcock movies so classic, you know, just like, oh, here we are at Mount Rushmore and, like, traipsing along it or, the crop dusting scene or just here we are in a beautiful elevator descending, into this crazy scene or whatever. I can’t remember the last movie I saw where just the physical, maybe, or even urban or rural environment I was really enamored of, of the environs. And I want that back. I don’t know how we get it back. It feels like I it’s going to rob that from us.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, we talked with, Carla about Brian De Palma, who obviously studied, you know, at the school of Hitchcock. Yeah. That’s right. He’s like, we don’t even have directors, you know, trying to replicate the great directors so much anymore, you know, I mean, except for Todd Phillips, whose Joker was basically a Scorsese film from the 70s. Yes.

 

Louis Virtel Right. Yeah. It’s very king of comedy oriented. Yeah, but I guess we should touch on that quickly. How do we feel about this joker, Farley? Ooh la la.

 

Ira Madison III You know what? I want to say shout out to her. And by her, I mean tod fellows. Because how much do we trash Joker.

 

Louis Virtel Right?

 

Ira Madison III And now we’re all excited to see Joker 2 just because we put Lady fucking Gaga in it. And it’s a jukebox musical.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, we stay stupid.

 

Ira Madison III Congrats.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Right. Right.

 

Ira Madison III He was like, I got something for you fagots.

 

Louis Virtel By the way, by the way, another project coming out, the new Amy Winehouse movie with Marissa Abella is not getting bad reviews. And we we thought it was going to be like, kick that into the VOD bin, please. Like, like a like a ferret that is like rancid and dying in the street.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. What streets you are.

 

Louis Virtel I don’t I don’t take care of my parents. They end up on the street.

 

Ira Madison III I’m making my way down town. Walk, in fact. Okay. You are not in Pleasantville? No.

 

Louis Virtel That’s that’s exactly right. Anyway, I’m curious how that will go again. It reminds me of when we trash the Judy biopic with, Renee Zellweger. And then it, of course, ended up winning the Oscar. And then she decided she was done with show business. What happened with Renee Zellweger?

 

Ira Madison III You know what? She was done with Kenny. She’s done with the business. She hates all that gay shit.

 

Louis Virtel No shirt, no shoes, no jobs. Where is she?

 

Ira Madison III All right, well, we are back, Keep It. We’re back with our favorite segment of the episode. It is Keep It. Louis, what’s your Keep It?

 

Louis Virtel Okay, so I go to bar trivia a lot. You know, I got to get my kicks somehow in this life. And this thing happens at trivia, where you have a bunch of questions in a row that aren’t really your category. You’re sort of waiting for your moment to be able to strike and show off to your team and say, I’m here for this question. I’m going to nail it. Well, that happened to us, where I got a question that should have been mine, that I should have known, and I didn’t fucking get it. And I’m going to pose it to you and you can tell me what level of scolding I deserve. But here it is. Who won the Outstanding Lead Actress in a mini series or a special Emmy for The Josephine Baker Story in 1991, becoming the first black actress to win in the category.

 

Ira Madison III Oh, wasn’t that. No, it wasn’t Holly.

 

Louis Virtel No. You’re thinking of Dorothy Dandridge.

 

Ira Madison III I’m thinking of Dorothy Dandridge. What year was it?

 

Louis Virtel 91.

 

Ira Madison III Josephine Baker?

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Was it?

 

Louis Virtel Okay, good. You don’t know it immediately. I’m a little bit comforted by that.

 

Ira Madison III Was it Lynn Whitfield?

 

Louis Virtel Yes. You got it. Lynn Whitfield.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, yes. Oh, I was like, which lights give, bitch! Run!

 

Louis Virtel We were sitting at the table. I was like, I know it’s somebody in the shape of Zoe Saldana, but it’s too early for Zoe Saldana. Yeah. I went through all these avenues to try to think of it because literally somebody at our table was, is there an actress whose name begins with L? And it was like, like, like she was trying to enter the room. But I went through all these avenues. I’m like, who’s in a famous sitcom at the time? Is Debbie Allen doing anything? I went through it, and what I should have done is just Keep It logic, and went through the cast of Eve’s Bayou. Then I would have thought of it. I feel so dumb.

 

Ira Madison III I always start with Eve’s Bayou.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Move on back. Yes. Okay. But you did get it. Yeah. I started watching the, biopic yesterday from 1991 and, it’s very TV biopic Gqom by which I mean she has her big dancing scene. And then afterwards you hear a voice where she goes, I was the toast of the town.

 

Ira Madison III Just. Yeah, it’s a first instinct.

 

Louis Virtel Screenwriting. But, she is fabulous in the movie. It was cool to watch. I’ll finish it soon. IRA, what is your Keep It this week?

 

Ira Madison III My Keep It this week goes to the Jerrod Carmichael reality series.

 

Louis Virtel Now, I have not seen this yet, and it’s like pseudo a reality series, right?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Girl, I didn’t see anything.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. Moving on.

 

Ira Madison III And I do not plan on watching it. My keep. It goes specifically to people who are mad about, you know, the racial politics of the series. You know, there’s things of him, there’s scenes of him talking to Tyler, the creator, about how he was in love with him, and then Tyler rejected him. And then you have Jerrod Carmichael, you know, joking about doing race play and stand up and sucking on a white man’s toes. In one of these episodes, people are up in arms that black shows on HBO were canceled to make way for this series, and my response to this is the stop fucking tweeting about it. Stop putting it on TikTok. Stop constantly making this series go viral. Because my thing is, I have not watched an iota of this series. I have not logged in to HBO to watch it, and yet I know everything that happens in every episode because I can’t escape it.

 

Louis Virtel It’s like accidental super promo for this series. We now know in depth what is happening.

 

Ira Madison III Your stress and affecting this series, and to being popular. Because I hate watching something. It’s the same thing as watching it.

 

Louis Virtel It sure is. Yes, I do have to say about Jerrod Carmichael. I’m still thinking about the way he hosted the Golden Globes. Like there was a saltiness there that I appreciated, but I think I needed him committed to the bid of hosting a little bit more. It’s like it was almost a really radical way to host the Golden Globes, but it was also a dud. I can between both extremes on it.

 

Ira Madison III Well, from the series, he talks a lot of white dicks and those are known to be salty.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, I didn’t realize that. Again, anthropology lesson here, but, Margaret Mead in the motherfucking house.

 

Ira Madison III Looking at you, you’re like that bitch with the yellow umbrella.

 

Louis Virtel Morton. Salt. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III You know, what’s her name? Emily Mortimer?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. That was her first job. Yes. Emily Mortimer could be 135 years old. You have no idea. You know what I mean? She’s. I was kind of every age.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So my thing is this show is going viral because people won’t stop talking about it. Yeah, and so you can’t be mad about it going. You can’t be mad about its success if it gets a second season, because you will not shut up about it.

 

Louis Virtel I have the distinct feeling this is a the idol situation where people are talking a lot about it and it feels like it’s gaining a foothold, but then people get sick of being upset and so they stop watching.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And like, listen, people are bringing up series that were canceled and there are people responding to me saying, we were talking about these black shows like Rap Shit and South Side and Lovecraft Country, and I’m like, no, you weren’t. You were talking about them with other like minded people, likely black people who are talking about this show within your specific bubble on social media. But these series were not going viral to the extent that The Jerrod Carmichael Show is going viral, because people are angry about it and anger always goes further. Insecure, for instance, went viral and people were constantly talking about that series, but that’s because they one loved it. And two, it always went viral when people were mad about a plotline, right? Two you know, so you need to get a bit of both. We’re in this world or, you know, like a series has to go viral or something for people to get eyeballs on it.

 

Louis Virtel You also just said the words rap shit, and now I’m thinking of what a spicy take Ada Osman would have had on us.

 

Ira Madison III You know?

 

Louis Virtel You know what? She would have had a good five paragraph essay on that.

 

Ira Madison III I miss her.

 

Louis Virtel I know. Oh, God, the best times. I ran into her on the street once and I was rhapsodic. I was like her embarrassing uncle.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I texted her, I said, girl, you need to come back in the studio because you ain’t got a job. Yeah, she said, and she was like, girl, if I come back, I might not leave. True, true. I’m like, that’s the point.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Right now these doors lock and they’re going to lock once you’re inside. Gerald’s game is back on. My favorite reference.

 

Ira Madison III Suddenly. Add that to the Keep It Family Feud bar.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Eve’s Bayou and Gerald’s Game battle neck and neck right now.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. All right, well, that’s our episode this week.

 

Louis Virtel It was fun. We had very little to talk about, and I felt somehow we padded it out. So, you know, you get excited gay people together, and look what happens. Content.

 

Ira Madison III Padded it out. This is the Plain Jane episode of Keep It.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, I am done with seeing this person out of drag on Twitter. I’ve heard the jokes enough. The season is a C. Much respect to my friend Matt Rogers, who was on the show last week and did a great job, and Joel Kim Booster, who was a guest judge a few weeks ago. But otherwise I’m lacking the X factor here.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, it’s I’m enjoying this season and I like the final three actually. But it really sort of has no, you know, pizzazz.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Right.

 

Ira Madison III As it were.

 

Louis Virtel It’s an ordinary season I guess.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. But it was the SAG strike season.

 

Louis Virtel So and we also want to say thank you to Carla Gugino for one, having a razor sharp memory. Well, she just took us to every era at once. She was like us. Thank you for being here. Watch her multiple new projects, and we’ll see you next week.

 

Ira Madison III I would go to the Carla Gugino Eras tour.

 

Louis Virtel Bringing out all the directors.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Louis Virtel Keep It is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are Chris Lord and C.J. “Siege” Polkinghorne. Our executive producers are Ira Madison, The Third, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James. Our digital team is Megan Patsel, Claudia Shang, and Rachel Gaeski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton. Thank you to Matt DeGroot, David Toles, Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.

 

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