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Damon Young: We are also the only city that Beyonce [laughter] during her tour decided, know what, fuck y’all niggas. [laughter] I am not coming. No postponement, no reschedulation, is reschedulation a word?

Shamira Ibrahim: I mean, hateration in the dancery is a word, right? 

Damon Young: I mean, she’s been in London. She’s been in Gotham City, Hogwarts, Jurassic Park, everywhere. [laughter] Right. But she was like Pittsburgh, I’m good. 

Shamira Ibrahim: I will say you’re lumping in London with a bunch of wild cities. [laughter] 

Damon Young: So welcome back, everyone to Stuck with Damon Young, the show where it pains us to finally admit that Beyonce is just not that into us. So Pittsburgh has the unfortunate distinction of being one of the worst cities in America for Black people. And also the only city where Beyonce’s Renaissance tour was canceled, not postponed or rescheduled. She just said, fuck y’all [laughs] that’s it. And I guess to talk about what this meant to the city financially, socially and even existentially, I’m joined by our cultural critic, Shamira Ibrahim, who is not from here, but has a general idea of where Pittsburgh is on the map. We also talk a bit about Doja Cat and the shifting nature of what it means to be a celebrity and then a spoken word artist Kyla Jenee Lacey joins us from for dear Damon, to help advise a woman who doesn’t know what she should do if she’s at a party and the DJ happens to play our R. Kelly. All right y’all. Let’s get it. [music plays] Shamira Ibrahim is a cultural critic and a byline mercenary. She’s also a good friend so do not hold that against her. Shamira what’s good? How you doing? 

Shamira Ibrahim: Cool. You know, happy for AC. Air conditioning is a positive thing in the world, even if it’s killing the environment. [laughs]

Damon Young: It’s a privilege. AC is a privilege. I saw there were some people, I guess in some parts of the country where it’s like brutally hot, like 115, 120 and you have a lot of people calling in to air conditioning companies complaining that their AC is broken. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: And I guess in the article, it’s like, you know, the AC can only do about so much. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. 

Damon Young: And it’s like if it’s 120 outside, we can make it to be 80 inside. 

Shamira Ibrahim: But can’t make it 60. 

Damon Young: Yeah, can’t make it 60. So I got a question for you. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Okay. 

Damon Young: Okay now have you heard my theory on why Pittsburgh is the Blackest city in America? 

Shamira Ibrahim: Unless it involves like August Wilson plays absolutely not so. 

Damon Young: It has nothing to do with August Wilson, although August Wilson, obviously he’s from here, his Century Cycle, was about Pittsburgh. But my theory has nothing to do with August Wilson. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Okay. 

Damon Young: Whatever the national disparities are. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: For, like health, wealth, education, infant mortality. Just go down the line. Pittsburgh is at like the bottom, right? So if there are national disparities, they are worse than Pittsburgh. All right. So there’s that. It’s also the whitest major metropolitan area in the country, which is something that I think surprises a lot of people when you hear that. 

Shamira Ibrahim: I don’t think that’s a surprise. I’m not going to— [laughter]

Damon Young: I feel like well, at least for me, like there’s a presumption that, like, I don’t know Salt Lake City. Like, there are places that I feel like that are more associated. Even Boston. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Oh, yeah, I forget. That’s like a city. Okay, sure. Mm hmm.

Damon Young: Yeah. I mean, places in the in the country that are more associated with whiteness. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: You know, or at least more aesthetically associated with whiteness than Pittsburgh is. But again, the greater Pittsburgh area, the whitest major metropolitan area in the country. And so with those things being considered, if you are Black in Pittsburgh, you have to be very intentional about being Black. It’s not like you living in New York City and you could just go to a Black owned restaurant, go to a Black themed event, have a Black party, walk outside and right into a day party or whatever a block party. Like we don’t have that shit here. Like we we— [laughter]

Shamira Ibrahim: Your entire picture of New York is absolutely dictated by someone who only comes here on weekends. [laughter] Like. 

Damon Young: Well I’m. I’m just saying. I’m just. I’m just saying these things exist. I’m not saying this city is like this all the time. 

Shamira Ibrahim: No, no, I get you. It’s just funny. It’s just funny. Go ahead. 

Damon Young: But these things exist in a city. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: Right? I’ve been there. Yeah. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Yeah. Yes. You. You. [laughter] You come here and you go on your Uber everywhere to, yes.

Damon Young: But anyway, Pittsburgh. There just aren’t as many like spaces that are friendly for us. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: And so in order to to venture out and to find those spaces, to find community, to find, like, a space where you could feel free, where you could feel family, you have to be more intentional about it, and you have to be more intentional and more just cognizant of, okay, I am Black. Where are the other Black people going to be? Where should I go to school or where should I live? Where should I go out? Who should I talk to? Who should I hang with? Where should I work? And of course, these are questions that exist everywhere else. But again, in Pittsburgh, they are just more paramount. And so for that reason, I think that we have the Blackest people in America. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: And since we had the Blackest people, we are the Blackest city. That’s my theory. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Because they’re committed to their Black experience. 

Damon Young: Because you just have to be more intentional with being Black. You can’t just be accidentally Black [laughter] in Pittsburgh. I mean, you’re signing up to struggle if you’re going to be Black in Pittsburgh. [laughter] Right. 

Shamira Ibrahim: You know, I would challenge, you know, Blackness is not a monolith. You know, all that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. You can come to New York and then you go and come for, like some chicken and waffles, Blackness that you find in, like Harlem, right? But then you come and get some jerk wing’s Blackness that you get in Brooklyn. You know what I’m saying? So you know everything. Your mileage may vary, but I get what you’re trying to say. 

Damon Young: And again you just mentioned two Blacknesses off the top of your head that that’s two more Blackness than we got at this [laughter] right? 

Shamira Ibrahim: It’s a port city like you don’t find that shit in New York and Miami. Black people that eat rice, five different types of ways.

Damon Young: Anyways. Blackest city in America is Pittsburgh. We are also the only city that Beyonce [laughter] during her tour decided, you know what. Fuck y’all niggas. I am not coming. No postponement, no reschedulation. Is reschedulation n a word?

Shamira Ibrahim: I mean, hateration in the dancery is a word. Right. So. 

Damon Young: Okay. No reschedulation. I mean, she’s been in London. She’s been in, like, Sweden. I think she’s been Gotham City, Hogwarts, Jurassic Park, everywhere. Right. [laughs] But she was like Pittsburgh? I’m good.

Shamira Ibrahim: I will say you’re lumping in London with a bunch of wild cities. [laughter] There’s a lot of niggas in London.

Damon Young: Obviously, it was a big deal. I mean, it was a big deal her coming and it was a big deal her deciding not to come in again, we still don’t really know the exact reasons why. I mean, there were there was a press release that that was dropped. I guess it’s been about a month now where, you know, there was logistical issues that were cited. And again, it was very vague. You know, these are logistical issues. And so it left a lot of room for interpretation to say, okay, what those logistical issues actually mean in this context. And again, there’s a lot of context here. There’s the fact that the last time she was here, she did not sell out. She had a show or shows at Heinz Field, I refuse to call it the new name that it’s called now, it’s Heinz Field. And she had a show there, I think, back in 2017 or 18. And so I’m wondering if that played a part. Also, Taylor Swift was here about a month and a half, two months ago, and she broke records like they even named a city after her for a day. 

Shamira Ibrahim: I mean, this is Taylor’s home territory. It sounds kind of kind of about. Right. I know Lancaster is like a billion years away, but I mean, general, like stomping grounds. 

Damon Young: I mean, Pittsburgh is a [?] Appalachia, so, you know, you’re not wrong. Right [laughter] you know what I mean. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. 

Damon Young: Mountain people coming through and supporting their girl. Taylor. So again, that context exists there, too. And so I guess this is really hard to explain, like the inferiority complex that I think many Black Pittsburghers have about the city, about how the city just doesn’t measure up to other cities in the country. And it’s not like an inferiority dysmorphia, like it’s real, like the disparities are real. The lack of a robust Black middle class is real. And you could go down the line. And so something like this happening is just another like just stab to the gut. It’s like, you know what, Y’all niggas in Pittsburgh just don’t matter. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: And I guess, I don’t know from an outsider perspective, when you heard about her canceling in Pittsburgh, did you have any thoughts about that? And again, this nigga had a show in Jurassic Park, right? Everywhere else. [laughter]

Shamira Ibrahim: So I have a couple of thoughts. Right. I think one in general, when a major artist or marquee artist cancels a major stadium show, it’s hard right across the board. One, because it’s not just a local metropolitan area that usually is experiencing it. You know, usually a lot of people are commuting in, to go experience that. So the sunk costs like it’s pretty heavy, right, even if you get the refund on the ticket. Right. Let’s say you get the face value, the ticket right. You know what kind of fly did you book if you decide to fly it. Right. Because let’s say your hometown is Pittsburgh, right? But you’re actually living in, you know, whatever, Atlanta now. But you wanted to do a girl show, you got a nonrefundable ticket. Well, I guess you just got to find out where all the best Black spots are in Pittsburgh that week. I don’t know, right, like [laughter] you know, or whatever the hotel situation is like. A lot of things come into a lot of these shows, people that commute for them. And so it’s really hard to restrategize for a lot of fans. And that’s really difficult no matter where it is, right? I think a lot of this conversation around tour infrastructure gets really tricky with major artists. I know one piece of backlash that Beyonce had gotten, for example, was around the time of The Gift, right? Which was like an album that was really centered around the African continent. And a lot of people were like, hey, well, it’s actually not easy to travel on the African continent tour, especially with a production as large as hers, right? 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: The cost, the investment. Right. Like, usually that’s why a lot of artists only do Lagos, Accra, South Africa. Right. You know, just to really be able to like, recreate the environment you want for a tour of your scale becomes really difficult. And so one thing that I really like and for me too, was when a lot of these global South countries, they get these acts that come hopefully once because usually one, an artist says we’re doing a global or world tour, right? Like you could call something a world tour if you just like London, Paris and Tokyo, right? [laughter] You know what I mean? That is a world tour, off rip. So if you really actually become lucky enough that let’s say, you know, whatever artist, it doesn’t really matter who it is. Justin Timberlake adds Argentina. Right. And all of a sudden, you’ve been diehard JT since No Strings Attached, right? You know, and oh, my God, you get to see your favorite artist in Buenos Aires, right? But they cancel like that can feel devastating. But it’s devastating for a lot of reasons, not just because. Oh, damn, I was excited for this day. They’re not going to come around for a few more years. Right. You know, and there’s usually a lot of investment for these. Like how I know for Pittsburgh, the mayor was out here being like, yo, why don’t you like us no more? [laughs]

Damon Young: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Openly pleading to come back, right? 

Damon Young: You know, and the mayor, I’ll say Ed Gainey, he’s my homie. I’ve known him for about 30 years. I used to hoop with him. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: He was like one of the old heads, when I used to hoop when I was younger and I mean, Ed wrote like it was almost like a jilted lover sort of letter. Like, I’ll read it for people who haven’t. Pittsburgh, we are deeply disappointed in the news that Beyonce has canceled her performance on August 3rd. We were fully prepared to welcome her to Pittsburgh and honor her with an official day recognizing her visit and accomplishments. We are in conversations with the promoter for the event in order to gain an understanding about what led to the cancellation. If there’s anything we can do as a city to find a new date or location for her show. And again, this is an official statement from the mayor—

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. 

Damon Young: —of the city. And part of that inferiority complex that I mentioned before is the we just automatically assumed that, okay, Beyonce, just decided that Pittsburgh was too wack [laughs] or whatever to not come. And so the logistical issue thing could have actually been real. Right.  Like maybe there was an issue with the stadium. Maybe there was something that. No, like maybe a part of her tour. You know, I know her tour has, like, some structure that is, like, very big. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: And maybe it wouldn’t have been able to fit into the stadium. So that is a very real thing. But again, I think that because of who Pittsburgh is and who Black Pittsburgh is, there was this immediate feeling that, you know what, we’ve been jilted again. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: You know, we have been looked over again. And this statement from Mayor Gainey isn’t so much for Beyonce. I doubt if it ever reached Beyoncé or even like someone who has six degrees of separation from Beyoncé. But it was for Black Pittsburgh. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. 

Damon Young: It’s for Black Pittsburgh to know that. You know what? Even know the rest of the world doesn’t have y’all’s back. I do. As the mayor. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. I mean, also as a municipal leader, like a concert this brings in a lot of revenue for that weekend. 

Damon Young: Mm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. You know what I mean? Like, there’s a lot of events that you can put on. There’s a lot of, you know, restaurants that get the offshoot of that revenue. It’s like an immediate injector to the economy that way, just for that short turnaround. Right. For restaurants, hospitality, all of that. So there’s like a best interest for any sort of municipal leader or if it’s for a country tour. Right. Like to really actually comment on it one way or the other. You know, I will say that logistics can mean a lot of things. 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: I don’t think it’s because of lack of ticket sales, to be honest. You know, and the reason why I say that is it because I don’t think that the Black Pittsburgh demographic has been disrespected. I fully do believe that it’s more so that promoters and their data analytics, they have that shit down to a T these days, right? So they have their metrics in the last tour, right? They had it before they booked the event. They knew how much they were going to sell. They knew they were not going to sell out. They said, let’s do it anyway. Right. From what I understand about Pittsburgh Stadium and like full disclosure, my knowledge of northwest Pennsylvania geography is like this much right. [laughs] So. 

Damon Young: And we’re southwest Pennsylvania, southwest. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Okay, see, there you go. I’m already wrong. Right. Right. I got west I got west right. It’s just like a really good intersection for a lot of different demographics and simultaneously for fanbase, I can’t really go anywhere else. So if you’re like in West Virginia or Ohio or, you know, one of these other states that are kind of catty corner, that they don’t have a really major stadium there that she’s going to go to. Right. But you can get to Pittsburgh, right? You know what I mean? So whatever, you know, small section of the beehive, they’re going to make that trip from Ohio, right within Ohio or from West Virginia or wherever. It’s like a really good area to get a good core of, you know, Black Appalachia or whatever. There’s the white stans, too, right? So I think they understand that. And that’s something they were intentionally targeting by continuing to hold the date. Logistics can mean so many things. It can mean that are actual like back line, like a lot of their equipment messed up, but they can’t get a replacement for it, you know, locally. 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: You know, in time, it could mean the way that she’s doing this American leg is a little bit all over the place like she went to Philly. She’s going to Chicago and Nashville, like, you know, she’s jet setting it’s not like a linear way down the East Coast, right? You know what I mean? So. 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: It could mean that, you know, she added a lot of dates and it’s just the overload is actually not making sense in a way. And unfortunately, somebody has to take the L for that. Right. You know, it could mean a lot of things, logistics is a very it means everything and nothing. 

Damon Young: It’s a nebulous term, yeah. It’s very nebulous. 

Damon Young: Yeah, it’s very nebulous. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. You know what I mean? And so unfortunately fans get the short end of that. But at the end of the day, I do think that it probably has less to do with the fact that like, oh well Pittsburgh is like mad white, right. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t think people automatically think of Nashville, for example, as a Black city, even though there is a huge Black community in Nashville. Right. You know. 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: And I do think Nashville sold out. But I think it was more than fine. I think that unfortunately, this is just something where the clarity you would want to get the answer to. We’re just not going to get it. But that does mean that for the fans, that spent the money, don’t get the returns on it, you know.

Damon Young: Yeah. And to put Pittsburgh in like a geographical context you know it is southwestern Pennsylvania you know right now I am probably a 40 minute drive from West Virginia a 40 minute drive from Ohio. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: So you have people coming from Ohio, people coming from West Virginia, people coming from Kentucky, maybe even coming from like western New York. I’m about 4 hours from Buffalo, which, you know, if you go about three or 4 hours north, you like drive right into Buffalo. And also, you know, I know people conflate Pittsburgh and Philadelphia because, you know, both cities with the P start with P and we’re in the state that starts with P. But we are extremely far apart. Just to get more geographical context, it is easier for me to get to drive to Toronto than it is for me to drive to Philadelphia. Right? So you do have not just Pittsburgh but this region. And this is traditionally an economically depressed region that doesn’t have this many sorts of international Black stars coming and visiting. And so Pittsburgh not having this concert isn’t just a it isn’t just an economic herpes. It also is more like an existential sort of thing where. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: Beyonce cancels in New York City. Niggas in the city is like, okay, we’re disappointed. But there’s like a thousand other things that we could do that weekend. You know what I mean? A thousand other things we could do that day, perhaps, but Beyonce cancels the Pittsburgh. It’s like shit that that was the summer [laughs] you know what I mean, that was the thing that people were—

Shamira Ibrahim: Right, right, right. 

Damon Young: —looking forward to doing from the time that the tour was announced. And so it’s just a different context, a different sort of feeling when a thing like that happens. And, as you were saying, you know, logistical issues could be so many different things that it’s such a nebulous term that it could be anything under the sun in it could be a euphemism for what we think it was a euphemism for. That is a possibility. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Mm hmm. 

Damon Young: But I think that I don’t know, again, when you have a city that already has this complex about who it is and about where it is and about what it is, then something like this happening, it’s like I thought it was hilarious actually, after like a day, like I thought it was like the funniest fucking thing ever. Like, of course, of course. Of all the cities [laughter] that would be canceled. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right, right. 

Damon Young: It would be Pittsburgh. Of course, this just makes like, it’s like perfect cinematic sense that it would be the city, right? So, yeah, it is what it is. And hopefully whenever she released her next album and has her next tour. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Maybe she could, add you to the make up dates when she does a Latin American leg, you know the Brazil hive has been waiting for years like they’re putting out full concerts down there. Right you know maybe she can add Pittsburgh on the tail end, I don’t know. 

Damon Young: That makes sense that that makes perfect sense. 

Shamira Ibrahim: You know, just I don’t know what the charter for that is looking like price wise, but I’m sure she can make it up. [laughter]

Damon Young: Yeah, I’m sure that happens all the time. And and again, you know, just to put some more context in, you know, when Taylor Swift came to Pittsburgh, it brought $46 million to Allegheny County. Her being here, I think she did two shows. She broke records, with both shows, I think had 150,000 people combined, you know, at those two shows. And yeah, she broke records, brought all types of money to the city. So, I mean, that is a possibility when someone like a Taylor Swift or someone like Beyonce comes to come to Pittsburgh. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Right. 

Damon Young: Have you gone to see Beyonce yet? 

Shamira Ibrahim: No. You know, I occasionally look at tickets. You know what I mean? It’s not like I’m not interested, but like, I think I just have hit my threshold of like ticket prices are too crazy these days. And like, what can I pay? Right? You know what I mean? And like, okay, I’m also a little bit of a snob [laughs] with concert going right? You know, I’m not if I’m going to go to a show, I’m not doing one of those, I’m not doing 200— It has to be like a stadium. I know what I know. It’s going to be a good view and a decent experience like I’m doing 100 or floor seats, you know what I’m saying? So it’s like.—

Damon Young: Shit, I’m sorry, excuse me. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Like [laughs] Beyonce is telling me that I got to pay rent. Like. [laughs] I don’t know if I got that right now. That said, you know, it can be like New York is next week or this weekend, rather. It could be a couple of days from now. I change my mind, I’m like, fuck it. Right. I’ve done stupider, impulsive things. 

Damon Young: Yeah. And speaking of celebrities who let’s just say they have some ambivalence [laughs] about their fans, are you familiar with the situation with Doja Cat where she basically said she has no obligation? She basically essentially said, fuck y’all [laughs] essentially. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Yes, she is. She definitely said IDGAF in all caps, right? Yeah. I mean, I have [laughs] I’ve been aware of it. I think it’s a very striking to see the backlash from this most because what she’s really doing is make it plain what a lot of celebrities feel, which is that like they don’t really care. Right? Like the backlash only matters as much as they have to manage it. Right. You know what I mean? So you’re not going to convince a celebrity who to date, who to not date, right. You know, who to be in a relationship with how to move. It’s just not going to happen the same way. You can’t convince your friends how to move. For real. For real, right. You know what I mean? Like. 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: And so do I think Doja is dead wrong for her behavior. Yeah, absolutely. She’s been dead wrong. on like a litany of things for— [laughter]

Damon Young: She’s been consistently like she’s been consistently, like, awful. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Five years, right? Like.

Damon Young: She’s a great artist, but she has been consistently like—

Shamira Ibrahim: Immensely talented. Right. But, you know, she is in those edgier spaces, like, I think one of the most prescient things that N.O.R.E ever said was that racial chat rooms tweet. [laughs] Right? 

Damon Young: Racial, racial feet. [laughter] 

Shamira Ibrahim: Maybe the most wise thing he’s ever said. 

Damon Young: Showing feet in racial chat rooms. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Aged quite well. But like, you know, I think it’s something very telling about the fact that, you know, a lot of the fans have been doing these missives about we defended you through endless every single awful thing she ever did, the time she DM’d the 17 year old. 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: The Amber Heard jokes, the you know, all the incel behavior, whatever, you know what I mean? The Paraguay crisis I alluded to, which is when she got into a whole situation because she canceled the tour date in Paraguay like it was a whole thing. Right. 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: But now that you told us that you don’t care, we’re not going to blindly defend you anymore. And it’s like, I mean, what does that say about your relationship to celebrity, right? That you needed it to be your moral center. So you blindly defended it, now that she’s rejecting you now you’re kind of really despondent about it, right? You can just enjoy an artist and say this is wrong and this is unacceptable and this is not wrong. Like these are not things that are actually mutually exclusive. But that’s not something that like in the way that celebrity culture has been fans like we’ve gotten to now where I do find a bit of an exception is that people are like, well, Doja’s right, like she doesn’t have to say she loves you. Sure, right. She is right. But I think that you have to also allow some space for a fact that like Doja, like many of these young celebrities, are people who have actively created a fanbase and nurtured relationships with their fans. You know, she stays on like frickin Tinychat and Twitch and Instagram live and talks with them and named them kittens or whatever. So, like her abject repudiation. Yeah, it’s going to feel like whiplash. Now, am I going to tell people to touch grass? Sure. Right. You know, but at the same time, like, there’s a little bit of a mutually beneficial situation that had kind of evolved from this, that now that Doja is a space where she’s having this, you know, rejection of celebrity and whatever, a feeling of accountability that she doesn’t want to have or, you know, discussing the public at this current moment in time. Now it’s inconvenient, right? But I also think it’s all generally immaterial. Like I do think that two months from now about the time our album drops, we’re going to get a very glowing profile of her right where it’s going to discuss her tortured relation with celebrity and how she’s gotten here and give her a lot more empathetic context and and a lot of people who are searching for an answer to cling on to the answer. Right. You know, I don’t like I don’t think this is going to be the destruction of doge or the way that people think. She’s name brand star. My mom knows who Doja Cat is right. You know what I mean? 

Damon Young: Mm hmm. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Like she’s here, right? She’s going to be here for a while. 

Damon Young: Shamira Ibrahim. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Yeah. 

Damon Young: Who writes [?] cover stories but will not be writing one on Doja Car. [laughter] Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Always have so many things happening concurrently. So what’s what’s happening? Where should people find you right now? 

Shamira Ibrahim: Yeah, I already alluded to a couple of things I recently dropped, which is like I recently wrote about the African performance Grammy for Africa as a Country. Great site. Recently wrote a cover story for Level on John Boyega for They Cloned Tyrone. Go ahead and watch it. You know, great cast, obviously, Teyonah, John Boyega, Jamie Foxx. I have a couple of things that I’m working on for hip hop’s 50th anniversary that should be coming out in a couple months. So just follow me on Instagram or TikTok. I’m not calling that shit X, sorry. [laughter] But I’ll be around there. The next couple of [?].

Damon Young: All right, Shamira, thanks for coming through. 

Shamira Ibrahim: Thank you for having me. [music plays]

Damon Young: Up next for dear Damon. We’re joined by spoken word artist Kyla Jenee Lacey. But first, Damon hates. [music plays] So I think we overcorrected as a culture with cupcakes, and now I love cupcakes as much as the next person. I love how convenient they are. I love how efficient they are. We get an entire cake in a cup. I’ve always loved just the idea of cupcakes. I feel like I’ve loved the idea of cupcakes even more than actual cupcake at times. But again, existentially. And also in reality. I loved cupcakes, but I feel like the love of cupcakes and this is like more of just a general cultural thing has become too much of a thing where now they are completely replacing cakes. Like I went to two parties over the weekend, a birthday party and a wedding, and neither of them had cakes. They had cupcakes, cookie table because it’s a Pittsburgh wedding, but no actual cake. And as much as I love cupcakes, I feel like the cake itself signifies like, okay, this is important. And then you have like the cutting of the cake and then okay. How much of the cake do you want, do you want to get seconds? And so I don’t know. I’m not going to say that I don’t appreciate the prevalence of cupcakes, because also with cupcakes. You could have many different flavors. You can have your red velvet, you have your gluten free, you can have your marble, you can have your chocolate, etc., etc.. I appreciate choice. But again, sometimes I just feel like a cake is necessary and I just don’t appreciate how we have completely neglected cake because this used to be cakes bag, like wedding season, birthday parties. That’s like cakes shit right there. And I feel like cupcake came through, took all the cakes status, took all of cake’s props. And I think we need to take the blame for that because, you know, all this pressure, all of this want all of these cupcake shops. There are no cake shops. There’s no like hipster cake shops popping up everywhere. There’s all these hipster cupcake shops, which I appreciate. Again, I’m not going to say I don’t appreciate a good cupcake, but again, I think that when the time calls for cake, we need to go back and have cake. [music plays] Kyla Jenee Lacey is a performing spoken word artist and writer whose work has been featured in the Huffington Post, The Root, AfroPunk and All Def Digital. Kyla. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Damon. 

Damon Young: With with people with three names. I just have like a compulsion to like initialize them. To acronize them. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Yes. 

Damon Young: So KJL, how do you feel about KJL? 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: So I used to do that all the time when I was younger because it’s also like you go on a telephone, it’s five by five. So when I was little, that was like my beeper notification to my mom. 

Damon Young: Okay. Okay. So KGL, from henceforth. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Can I call you young man? Is it like an even exchange? 

Damon Young: I mean, if you feel like it, go ahead. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I’m sure I’m not the only one like young man. 

Damon Young: Not. I was DY in college. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Okay. Okay. 

Damon Young: D Young in high school. Dame Young. Also, Beav, for people that have known me for a long time, and Beav is shortened for Beaver, which this fat white boy started calling me when I was like nine because I had buck teeth and it just stuck. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: How’s he doing, by the way? 

Damon Young: I haven’t kept up with him. I have no idea. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I feel like, you know, sometimes you kind of have to, like, look and see what your bully is doing. 

Damon Young: Yeah, I. I would even know if he qualified as a bully because he just said this one thing and it just stuck. It’s like a I don’t know, he caught lightning in a bottle where he just made one comment while playing football one day and it just spread like wildfire. Beav. And so people who know me from the neighborhood know me, you know, growing up hooping and whatever. A lot of them know me as Beav and don’t know, like the genesis of Beav. They just know me as Beav. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: So I was called KK in college, but I actually hated that nickname. But it was one of those things that one roommate called me. She didn’t want to call me Kayla, which I appreciate because I hate being called Kayla. And then it just kind of stuck. So when anybody calls me KK, I know like, oh, okay, you knew me when I was sweet. [laughs]

Damon Young: Okay, well, I feel like that’s a perfect segue way for MTP. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Okay. 

Damon Young: Morgan, the producer [laughs] to come through. What do you have for us this week, MTP? 

Morgan Moody: Dear Damon, I was at a wedding where the DJ played Step In the Name of Love, and I didn’t know what to do. At first, I froze because I can’t believe people are still playing this man’s music. But in this scenario, what should you do? Should you tell the DJ to change it? Or just wait for the next song? 

Damon Young: Okay. So have you been in this space recently? And I say recently, like in the last five years. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Yes. 

Damon Young: People have played R. Kelly. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Yes. 

Damon Young: What did you do? 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I’ve been in multiple spaces. Actually, I was in one recently, like this month, and I was just kind of like, oh, wow, this is a weird thing because it’s like, you can’t. I’ve been in spaces where, like, there was two different reactions, right? So there’s been spaces where people were like, boo, get the fuck off the stage. You know like stop playing that. Which was weird cause it’s like New Year’s Eve. So it was just having really, like, a vibe killer. 

Damon Young: Oh, wow. Okay. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: But then I was in a poetry show recently, and they were playing R. Kelly, and I was just looking like, we’re doing this. This is what we’re doing? I think we all like to say that we are super big and brave in those instances, but it’s just kind of like you want to be known as the person who like broke the party vibe. It’s like a weird space, but also somebody has to be the person says like, okay, I’m not into this. Like, this is a bit much. These are, you know, songs about kids and its not KIDZ BOP. 

Damon Young: Yeah, I mean, I think that there are many other artists who have been accused who have done like heinous shit, right. And whose work was popular and work still exist in the zeitgeist. And I think one thing that makes R. Kelly so distinct one was his level of depravity. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: And two, he couldn’t read. 

Damon Young: Yes. [laughter] Over over 30 years. And also there’s no potential for cognitive dissonance because he makes weird freaky sex music, too. And so—

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Show me your ID?

Damon Young: Yeah. And so there’s not even any opportunity for you to be like, you know what? All right, maybe with Step In the Name of Love or something like that. But what most other popular R. Kelly songs there’s no opportunity for you to be like. You know what, yeah, he did this shit. But, you know, this song is about kittens or the song is about, you know, getting your favorite milkshake at the Milkshake Factory. It’s like, no, it’s about that shit that he was found guilty of doing, right? And so I feel like and this is, you know, to your point, I actually haven’t been in space in a long time that I can remember where R. Kelly was played and I feel like I want to tell myself that I would be that nigga that if it like I was at a wedding this past weekend at the DJ played some you know Step In the Name of Love or Fiesta or Ignition that I would march up to the DJ booth. I would say this is a disgrace. I would unplug all the DJ equipment and then boom, that would happen. But I don’t—

Kyla Jenee Lacey: In the Hollywood scene in your mind? 

Damon Young: Yeah. I feel like this is one of them things where, like everyone says that they would go into the burning building to save a loved one, right? Everyone says that they would do that. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Depends on which loved ones cause— [laughter] My dad might not get the same treatment as my mom, just keeping it real. 

Damon Young: But it is one of those circumstances where you don’t really know how you react until you’re in that exact situation. Right? You can’t presume a reaction. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I feel like in human nature there are specific people who are like, they look around and they assess and they’re like, okay, I’m going to be the person to stand up for this. Like, you know, it’s me sometimes because like, why is TSA taking too long? We’re missing our flights. Like, that’s me. And so usually I am that person, but also like at certain, sometimes I just want to, you know, not get beat up on the way home for, you know, hating R. Kelly. 

Damon Young: Okay. You say you are the person at the airport that will scream and be loud. So what’s the distinction between being that in that environment and being at the club being wherever and R. Kelly comes on and having some more ambivalence about whether or not to speak up? 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Okay, So recently I was in the airport and these people were jumping the lines and no offense, those people, but they definitely look like Spirit Airlines customers [laughter] and they’re just like jumping in front of everybody. And I was like, oh, hell no, you know, and everybody’s just like standing around. And I’m like, no, like these people are getting in front of all of us and nobody is saying shit. And so now a lady wants to look at me. No, lady, don’t look at me. Look at them. But I also know that everybody was looking like somebody needs to say something. And I don’t necessarily know that if we’re at a wedding, half of the people are still probably very much listening to him. I don’t know. 

Damon Young: Also, it’s like it’s a choice, right? So a DJ playing R. Kelly in 2023 is a choice. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: It is. 

Damon Young: And the people who hired this DJ, you know, you’re probably not hiring someone blindly, you know, the sort of person that they are, you know the sort of sensibility that they bring to each space. So the person who hired him, whether it’s the wedding planner, we’re staying with the wedding context. So maybe it’s the wedding planner, maybe it’s the bride or the groom, whatever. They know that. Okay, this is a person [laughs] who playing R. Kelly is within the spectrum of expected behavior for this person. And so that has to be taken into account, too. It’s like, okay, maybe you’re in a space where they just expect this shit to be played. And they don’t give a fuck. But again, if you’re in that space, if you’re in a space like that, should you be the one who like, you know what and shame the fuck out of everybody else is just like, you know, this is wrong— 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I mean hell yeah, you should be right. Like, is that the reality? You know? And I think too what is the line of demarcation like? Okay. Obviously R. Kelly is like severe, right? But then you have like the Chris Brown’s or you even have the possible Michael Jackson’s, James Brown. Like, you know, if your name is Brown. Bobby, Brown. And I love Bobby Brown, by the way. But I feel like, you know, what is the line where somebody says, okay, this person is just not salable and we shouldn’t support their art anymore. Or we’re human. We make mistakes. You know, we all have checkered pasts. And I think when people don’t make a serious, concerted effort to say, okay, like, hey, child abuse is like the line, like, that’s it for me. You know, like, I just feel like even with the whole Doja Cat, you know, thing where she’s just basically like giving her finger to her fans and people are like, oh, you know, I’m blocking her. I’m never like, but she doesn’t owe you that. And she may have consorted with some unsavory people, but in the grand scheme of things, of people to cancel, I think she’s a little lower on the list than some people that we always listen to. 

Damon Young: Yeah, I think R. Kelley is someone who is so unique. Like, I feel like he’s an easy. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Yeah. 

Damon Young: Choice. I think the other people Michael Jackson, James Brown, Marvin Gaye, you know, when you think about the stuff that they were accused of, it shouldn’t be a hard choice. But because this stuff happened so long ago, I think that it kind of muddles it and makes it a bit messier and a bit more convoluted. Whereas with R. Kelly, I mean, a motherfucking documentary, just aired like three years ago. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Yeah. 

Damon Young: And he has never repented, he has never—

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Yeah. 

Damon Young: —apologized, he’s never asked for forgiveness, none of that. I think R. Kelly is so easy. It’s so easy and his crimes are so, like, severely abhorrent that it’s an easy choice. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: And I mean, specifically making music about it, too. 

Damon Young: I mean, how do you feel about Cosby if you’re at a game night, if you’re at someone’s house, The Cosby Show’s on, what do you do? 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: So, like, I think the most interesting thing about The Cosby Show, obviously, you know, beyond the respectability politics was that he was a gynecologist who worked out of his basement. And I’m just like, nobody thought, hey, maybe you should just at least have an office like that’s not attached to his house. I don’t know. But I think R. Kelly made music specifically with these, like, hands of his like crimes. Right. And Bill Cosby essentially did the same thing, you know, And I think this, like, blatant like, fuck you to any rules or any regulations. And also, I think hear me out. 

Damon Young: Okay. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: It’s going to be controversial. They’re going to tweet you about this. 

Damon Young: Here it comes, here it comes I’m ready. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I think. And there was suspected that he did violate young boys as well. But I think if his crime were against young boys instead of young girls, women or young women or teenage whatever, I think people would be way more likely to boycott his music. 

Damon Young: I agree. I agree 100% that if it had been young Black boys, young white boys, whatever, instead of young Black girls that have been victims of his crimes, then well, there would be people who were still on the train you know what I mean, people who still have like, yeah, I know he did all that. But Fiesta is my jam. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Sure, sure. 

Damon Young: And I and I can’t I can’t sacrifice these 3 minutes that this DJ is gonna play this song, I can’t cut that out of my life. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I’ve even had to cut out songs that he wrote that I like because I wasn’t like a big fan of his music, but like, You Are Not Alone and Let it Flow. I’m like uh.

Damon Young: You know, I think getting back to the Cosby question, too, it’s like, I think that it’s actually easier. Like, okay, so you have the dynamic of okay party. R. Kelly, do you say something or do you just go sit down? Okay. But if you’re at like someone’s house and they’re playing Cosby, I feel like there’s more of an opportunity to be like, yo, are we still watching Bill Cosby? And like, that’s starting a conversation, right there, like, yo, what’s up? Who turned this on? 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I think music also has a greater grasp on this nostalgia than any other art form, right? Because music decorates space and time. Art, as a general statement obviously evokes something in us and makes us feel something. And The Cosby Show obviously lends itself to a lot of nostalgia for us, but it was very much a fixed 30 minutes nostalgia like once a week versus, you know, R. Kelly having made music for 20, 30 years over, you know, we get just. Listen to it on the way to the beach or listen to it on a way to somebody else’s house, you know, and have sex with them. But I think music provides an interesting level of nostalgia that no other artform provides. And so I think that’s why it’s harder for people to let that go, because it’s like the soundtrack of our lives. 

Damon Young: Yeah, you said sex in the evilest voice just now like—

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Sex. 

Damon Young: And go have sex with them. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Sex. 

Damon Young: It’s like, oh, shit [laughs] it’s happening. And so I guess the answer to a person’s question like, what do you do? What are you supposed to do? I think that at the very least, sit down. This is your time to go to the bar. This is your time to, you know, check your phone, see who responded to your tweet. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: I’m gonna definitely not dance. 

Damon Young: Yeah, you’re not dancing, you don’t move a muscle. I mean, I think someone you know, someone should go to the DJ booth and be like, yo, what the fuck? And okay, why not? Why shouldn’t. Why couldn’t. Why couldn’t that someone be you? Kyla Jenee Lacey. Thank you. Coming through. Appreciate you. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Damon Young: Where can people find you? Do you want to be found? 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Sometimes. But, you know, the Internet is an interesting place. But they can find me on social media @KylaJLacey, on Instagram @Kyla_Lacey on Twitter because Kyla J. Lacey, is not going to come back to us. 

Damon Young: Okay. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: On Twitter. But also, I will be having a show, my own podcast come out on Sirius with Karen Hunter called Life Sentences. So and I do some poetry on that and, you know, talk about life and stuff and my cats. 

Damon Young: I appreciate how you shifted to the spoken word voice. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: You know, you know, that’s my original art form so. 

Damon Young: All right. Well, thank you for coming through. Appreciate you. And again, look out for Kayla in her poetry voice on her new podcast. 

Kyla Jenee Lacey: Bye. [music plays]

Damon Young: Again, I just wanted to thank Shamira Ibrahim, Kyla Jenee Lacey for coming through. Great guest, great conversation, great topic. And thank you all again for coming to Stuck with Damon Young. You could have it anywhere else in the world, but you chose to be here to listen to my podcast of all the podcasts out there and you chose to listen to mine. So thank you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. Also, you can find Stuck with Damon Young wherever you can find podcasts, but if you happen to be on the Spotify app, there are interactive poll questions, answers. You can have a lot of fun. So go knock yourself out on the Spotify app. Also, if you have any questions about anything whatsoever hit me up at deardamon@crooked.com. All right y’all. See you next week. [music plays] Stuck with Damon Young is hosted by me, Damon Young. From Crooked Media, our executive producers are Kendra James and Madeleine Haeringer. Our producers are Ryan Wallerson and Morgan Moody. Mixing and mastering by Sara Gibble-Laska and the folks at Chapter Four. Theme music and score by Taka Yasuzawa. And special thanks to Charlotte Landes. And from Spotify our executive producers are Lauren Silverman, Neil Drumming and Matt Shilts. Special thanks to Lesley Gwam and Krystal Hawes-Dressler. [music plays]