House of the Dragon Ep 3 & Ask The Maester + She-Hulk Ep 4 with Cody Ziglar | Crooked Media
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September 09, 2022
X-Ray Vision
House of the Dragon Ep 3 & Ask The Maester + She-Hulk Ep 4 with Cody Ziglar

In This Episode

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On this episode of X-Ray Vision, Jason Concepcion and Rosie Knight hunt stags and hang out with Wong! In the Airlock (2:14), Jason and Rosie dive deep (deeep) into House of the Dragon episode 3, recapping and discussing the drama, lore and greyscale. Then in round four of Jason’s classic segment Ask the Maester (55:43), he and Rosie answer listener questions about House of the Dragon and Westeros. Then in the Hive Mind (1:21:10) Rosie is joined by She-Hulk writer, Spider-Punk head-banger, and X-Ray Vision co-host Cody Ziglar to explore She-Hulk episode 4, what it was like to be one of the in-house comics nerds in a fantastic writer’s room, and the inspirations behind the series.


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The Listener’s Guide for all things X-Ray Vision!

She-Hulk (2004-2005) and She-Hulk (2005-2009) by Dan Slott and Juan Bobillio (iconic covers by Greg Horn, some of which have inspired posters for the show). One of the most well-known She-Hulk comic runs and a big influence on the series.


She-Hulk (2014-2015)  by Charles Soule and Javier Pulido. Another acclaimed run with clear influences on She-Hulk: Attorney at Law.


A-Force, created by Marguerite Bennett, G. Willow Wilson, and Jorge Molina, first appearing in Secret Wars before debuting in their own series in 2015.


Daredevil by Mark Waid, Paolo Rivera, Marcos Martin, and more.


Hawkeye by Matt Fraction and David Aja.

Black Widow by Kelly Thompson, Elena Casagrande, and more.







Rosie Knight Warning This podcast contains spoilers for She-Hulk Episode four and House of the Dragon Episode three. Well, hello. My name is Rosie Knight and welcome to X-ray Vision, the Crooked Podcast, where we deep dive into your favorite shows, movies, comics and pop culture. You may have noticed that I am introducing the show, not the amazing Jason Concepcion, who is on vacation currently. But don’t worry because he’s joining us in the Airlock for House of the Dragon Episode three, then for Ask the Maester round four. In the Hive Mind, I get the absolute joy of talking She-Hulk episode four with She-Hulk writer and X-ray Vision co-host and Emmy nominee Cody Ziglar. If you want to jump around, you know the deal. Check the show notes for timestamps. And joining me today, only the House of the Dragon and Ask the Maester is the wonderful Jason Conception. So let’s get to it.


Jason Concepcion We’re stepping out of the airlock and onto the beautiful Step Stones. How wonderful this time of year on the Step Stones to discuss House of the Dragon Episode three. Second of his name, written by Gabe Fonseka and Ryan Condal and directed by Greg Yaitanes. We open on the Step Stones where war rages. Daemon and Corlys rule the air. They have dragons. There are boats burning. But the Crab Feeder, unfortunately, kind of a smart guy.


Rosie Knight Very smart.


Jason Concepcion And when, a very smart man. And when the dragons approach, the Crab Feeder goes back into his crab cave with his men and they just wait and they shelter. And they’ve been doing this for years. Daemon, frustrated as he is, does the classic thing that all nobles in Game of Thrones House of the Dragon era who are who are losing say which is fight me one on one.  Let’s end this. Let’s do it mano a mano, me versus you. And let’s just let that decide the whole thing. But of course, again, Craghas Drahar, the Crab Feeder, smart guy, he’s not going to do that. We go back to Westeros where a royal hunt is taking place in celebration of the second named day time goes so quickly. Time moving. Moving quickly. Second name day of Prince Aegon, the now two year old son of King Viserys and Queen Alicent. And the queen is also pregnant with their second child, Otto Hightower, and his brother Holbert Hightower are absolutely delighted at the the level up in fortunes of their family and the king and queen or doting over their son. And it’s clear that King Viserys is very, very happy. And Holbert’s like soon enough, right. The king is going to name Aegon as their right. And Otto hand of the king. Otto says, Well, you know, I’ve been trying to get that to happen, but the king doesn’t really see it that way. And of course, his has named his heir to be Princess Rhaenyra. And Holbert gives his brother Otto a very serious look and says, Well, I guess you’ll just have to convince him. Seeing as your hand of the king. So pressure on that family, not just coming from Otto to Alicent, but from Holbert, who is the older brother to Otto himself. Enter Tyland, Lannister, the twin brother of the Lord of Casterly Rock, with news of the latest debacle on the Step Stones and the king is like, I’m on vacation, man. I’m like, on a hunt.


Rosie Knight I’m just trying to chill.


Jason Concepcion Just trying to chill. It’s Aegon’s second birthday. Shut the fuck up. The war has apparently been dragging on for three bloody years. Daemon and Corlys need backup. But of course, they’re too proud to act to ask for it. Driftmark. Not a not a not a very populated island. So it makes sense that they would have so sought levees as a significant part of their army. And clearly they don’t want to hang out any longer despite the payday. And the king’s attitude is, well, you went and did this yourselves. This is your decision. Corlys and Daemon, so go ahead and get yourself out of it. Tyland is like, Hey, it’s really bad. Shouldn’t we send some aid? Daemon is like a tyrant now and his men are mutineers. And Otto jumps in and it’s like. Hey. Daemon went half cocked. It’s a bad look for the crown if the king has to step in and makes him look weak. And we don’t want to look weak right now. And King Viserys meanwhile, is like, where’s my daughter? Where’s Princess Rhaenyra? Princess Rhaenyra is in the God’s wood, Rosie, doing the thing. This was one of the more relatable things I’ve ever seen in a Game of Thrones slash House of the Dragon slash George R.R. Martin Show, which is reading a book and just listening to the same song over and over again.


Rosie Knight That moment when he’s like, Would the princess not want to hear another? And she’s like, No, no, princess would not play it again.


Jason Concepcion Play under the dragon’s eyes one more time. That is what Princess Rhaenyra is doing. She’s in the God’s wood and she’s asking for the international healer under the dragon’s eyes, which again is about the historic hero, Nymeria, who is, of course, a huge cultural figure in Dorne and a hero and well-known figure all throughout Westeros. Alicent comes in to see her and we get this. A real power like a the precursors of what clearly is going to be a power struggle. The queen is like, Hey, Minstrel, please leave. I’d like to have a private conversation with Princess Rhaenyra. And Princess Rhaenyra is like, musician, no, you’re not leaving. You’re not going anywhere. And then they have a fight about it, kind of like a little tete a tete about it. And then the musician eventually leaves, so the queen wins. This round, Alicent brings word that her dad, King Viserys wishes Rhaenyra to join the family on the Name Day Hunt and in fact, orders for Rhaenyra to join. And Rhaenyra is clearly unhappy about it. But Alicent again is really trying to keep this friendship alive. And we don’t none of it needs to be this way. Like you don’t need to make it this way. We can still be friends even though yes, I did marry your dad and am currently pregnant with his second child.


Rosie Knight And now outrank you and can just be like the Queen says. So Queen’s better than Princess. Sorry.


Jason Concepcion They take a carriage ride, of course, out to the Kingswood. It is bumpy and it’s awkward in there. The king is already pretty drunk and he’s talking to Rhaenyra about how much he can’t wait for her to get pregnant. Alicent is like, Hey, it’s not that bad the second time we’re doing it. It’s not that bad, you know, not counting the times, all the times that your mother was not able to carry a child to term and then, of course, died.


Rosie Knight In childbirth, murdered by your dad.


Jason Concepcion Right. So it’s actually not that bad. Like just ignore that part of it. So weird convo here Alicent strangely is like Aegon just slid out.


Rosie Knight Yeah. I also like the women and the the nurses are just looking at her like, what the fuck man? Like they just don’t do it. It’s bad. This is bad.


Jason Concepcion The King reminds the princess of the royal duties that she’s going to have to uphold during this trip. And the princess, in a little bit of a tiff is like, no one is here for me. They’re all here for Aegon. It’s Aegon’s name day. And she’s right because they pull in to this this vast royal hunters pavilions. There’s hundreds of people there and applause breaks out as the king and queen and young Prince Aegon come off the caravan. The reception later takes place later in the royal pavilion. The king notices Jason Lannister is the Lord of Casterly Rock and he’s a very arrogant man. He is leering at the princess like she’s a sandwich. Larys of House Strong we’re going to get to know, a.k.a. The Clubfoot is there. The youngest son of Lyonel Strong, Master of Laws, is now. Rosie, this was so well done. This character work right here. So Larys obviously has a physical disability. And notice how Larys comes in, he’s like, Oh, you know, this one’s not for me, obviously, because of my my deformity. Is it okay if I just sit here, ladies, where this very sensitive conversation is taking? I’ll just sit here where the, where some of them where some of the most confidential conversations are taking place about goings on at the highest reaches of Westerosi power. I’ll just innocently sit here and listen to this.


Rosie Knight And they just immediately continue on. It’s like all the highest ladies from the highest families talking mad shit, spilling mad secrets. And he’s just chilling there. He’s like, I’m so weak, I couldn’t possibly have ulterior motives. But just even though I have lived with this clubfoot my whole life and I’m probably pretty proficient at doing everything, I just need to sit down right now.


Jason Concepcion I just. I have to sit down right here. Keep an eye on this one. There’s a little bit of a disagreement here in this conversation where Lady Redwyne opines about the king and the current situation and Step Stones. She’s like, in a kind of in a kind of mean way, asks Princess Rhaenyra about Daemon. Princess Rhaenyra is like I haven’t spoken to Daemon in years. And. You know, she’s complaining, Lady Redwyne is about the state of the Step Stones and whether the crown should step in. And Rhaenyra is like, Well, what are you exactly doing to help the war effort? Which was an interesting. But also I thought. You know, the Redwyne fleet is an important fleet in the Royal Navy. So I don’t know if this was necessarily the wisest come back from Rhaenyra considering that the family fleet, you know, obviously Lady Redwyne is not on the ships, but like the family’s fleet is an important fleet for the realm. But I think it just goes to underline the kind of disconnect that Rhaenyra is feeling, despite the fact that she was triumphing on Dragonstone now three, two, two, three years ago.


Rosie Knight Yeah, I think it’s that classic kid thing as well of like, I can talk about my family however I want and be pissed at them, but you can’t. And that.


Jason Concepcion I think that’s exactly right.


Rosie Knight I also find it very I find it to be a very interesting scene because generally I feel like this episode is another really great Rhaenyra episode showing her kind of antiestablishment rebellion mindset that is going to kind of have to define where she’s going. But this definitely shows a little bit of a lack of the cunning. But someone like Alicent.


Jason Concepcion I agree.


Rosie Knight And you need these women should be your allies, even if they suck, even if they’re disrespecting Daemon, who, like she said, she hasn’t spoken to. So why do you still have that loyalty? Obviously we know and people listening who who know the story are going to understand why that comes in. But yeah, I found this to be very interesting. So I feel like it was a rare misstep for her in an episode where she’s kind of forging her own path, but in a way that, for the most part, looks like it’s going to do her quite well.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, I completely agree with you. It’s like, obviously Alicent has Otto who’s a a quite a strategic thinker. Rhaenyra doesn’t really have that kind of person in her corner. And again, she’s a teenager. And you really feel like what happened on Dragonstone in the previous episode now several years ago, if she would have had someone like Otto in her corner, that triumph should have been broadcast all around the realm. Oh, did you hear what Princess Rhaenyra did on Dragonstone? How she saved the day. No bloodshed. Got the egg back. Got Daemon out of Dragonstone. All of that stuff should have been just trumpeted.


Rosie Knight It should have been more. But we said no one’s going to sing songs about it. No one’s going to talk about it, mostly because she’s a woman. Also because of the drama around the air. It makes me really sad because I do think Rhaenys could have been that person. But oh.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight I would have loved to see that. That’s in my idealized version, not based on any canon. But


Jason Concepcion No, I agree with you.


Rosie Knight Her own connections to what could be the crown and the dreams that she and Corlys have. It’s just never going to be that. But you’re so right that that moment, like when we saw it, as impactful as it felt to us, if that had gone around, that’s like a Danny making moment. But without the bloodshed, she didn’t have to say Drakkar. She didn’t have to kill hundreds of people. She called Daemon’s bluff. And she saved hundreds of lives. But. And she rode a dragon, which was badass. But, like, nobody cares. Nobody knows. It’s irrelevant now. There’s a two year old walking around.


Jason Concepcion Rhaenyra steps out of the pavilion to get some air. Jason Lannister is there and he’s like, Hey, how are you? By the way, I want to shout out the one Asian extra that we’ve seen in the background of almost every episode right now. There’s the royal stuff. I see you, girl. I see you. What’s up? Shouts to you. The Jason Lannister comes up and he’s like, Hey, hey, why don’t you come see Casterly Rock? Yeah, it’s like scene of my house. Maybe I’ll build a dragon pit for you. You know what I mean? And Rhaenyra is like, Why? And Jason’s like, so my queen and lady wife can have a dragon. You know, when we stay there. I’m talking about you, babe. And, you know, it’s like, okay.


Rosie Knight He’s the worst. He’s got no game. Nothing.


Jason Concepcion Zero.


Rosie Knight Just absolute, like, weird creeper. Doesn’t even have the Lannister looks that we have come to know. So, like, there’s nothing. It’s just. It’s not there yet. The Lannisters have not grown into their terrible, but handsome selves yet.


Jason Concepcion Really makes you appreciate Tywin as a get as a mover and shaker in that family. And of course like Tywin it’s interesting because Jason is it’s a family that has kind of made its legend, you know, Land the Clever famously like conned the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock. So they they have this reputation for being very, very clever and subtle and somewhat devious. But also like the history of the Lannisters is full of like people like Jason who’ve almost squandered the family wealth. Tywin Lannister, his dad was exactly like this. So Tywin, we miss you. So Rhaenyra goes storms up to her dad, the king, and she’s like, What? You’re marrying me off to the likes of Jason Lannister now? What the fuck? And they have a big argument in front of basically the entire, like, nobility of the realm. Certainly the ones that are here for the name day. The. The King is like Jason Lannister. It’s a great match, what are you talking about? Casterly Rock, get rich, and she’s like, he’s arrogant and self-serious. The king comes back with, Well, I thought you might have that in common. Oh, it’s a roast, Rosie.


Rosie Knight Shots fired, shots fired, shots fired.


Jason Concepcion The king is like, Listen, I’m drowning in marriage proposals. Every day people are writing me, they want to marry you. And we need to do something about this. You at least need to start taking these meetings. Otto steps in just as the disagreement is about to get really, really ugly. And he shut it down with news that the Royal Huntsman has cited a white heart, which is kind of like the king stag of the king’s forest. And a very, very good sign. Folks, that means we got to kill this white stag. It’s got to die.


Rosie Knight And in the law, if the king kills the white stag, then it would mean the Aegon. His son, is the rightful heir to the throne. And that’s very important because of the events of what happened in the rest of the episode.


Jason Concepcion That is that is how people would interpret that sign.


Rosie Knight That’s how they could interpret it.


Jason Concepcion And certainly I think they listen. They. One. A significant number of I think people around the realm would interpret it this way and two, Otto of would make sure they hear about it.


That’s what I was going to say. That there’s it’s not a coincidence that Otto is the one who brings him this news and Otto is the one who wants to kill it. And Otto is the one who’s like, by the way, I think I read in a book that like, you know, you can imagine him worm talking. He’s like, you know, I don’t know. It’s like if you if you do that, it’s like a prophecy. Because I know you love prophecies and like if you do this, then it means that Aegon’s going to be a good king. So, like, cool. So off they go.


Jason Concepcion The princess is like, I’m out of here. She needs to blow off some steam. She jumps on a horse and and just rides off into the woods. Criston Cole. Ser Criston Cole does his duty and follows her, the princess tells Criston eventually, when they kind of settle down with what the issues are. Cole Very humorously is like, You want me to kill Jason, let’s kill.


Rosie Knight That’s like the cutest flirtation we’ve ever seen in Game of Thrones, like lore


Jason Concepcion Would you like me to assassinate him?


Rosie Knight I could kill him. You want me to kill him? I’m like, you should just say yes actually. In Game of Thrones this is probably bad for you if you just say yes, babe.


Jason Concepcion They they get to know each other a little bit. Cole talks about his life. FT He says that, you know, I was never a high status enough person to marry a person of noble birth. And now, of course, because of the oath that I took as a member of the Kingsguard, I can never get married. And if a father children, I can never have sex. Although they’re breaking that rule all the time. Let me tell you Ser Criston Cole, don’t worry about it.


Rosie Knight All day. Every day.


Jason Concepcion All day. Every day. They are breaking that rule, as the men of the Night’s Watch are also breaking that rule. There’s a reason why Mauls Town has a brothel. They’re breaking that rule all the time. Rhaenyra complains about how little authority she has in the realm, despite the fact that she is that the heir, and especially now as Aegon is growing older and providing a focus for other people to project their their aspirations of the realm onto and Cole says, hey, you got me into the Kingsguard that showed you have some real authority. So it feels like these two have a real bond there. And certainly that Cole is is very grateful for what Rhaenyra has done.


Rosie Knight It’s not it’s not certain because we don’t know a lot about Cole, but he can definitely maybe be that a part of that ally that she needs, even if it’s not. Even if it’s not. The cunning, Otto style this is the episode where.


Jason Concepcion  She needs that.


Rosie Knight She has one person on side.


Jason Concepcion That’s right. Meanwhile, the hunting party is on the trail of this white hart. Otto is just so psyched that they might find it. Meanwhile, the king is drunk. Someone has to tell the king to stop drinking.


Rosie Knight We know what happens when a king drinks on a hunting party. We have learned this lesson before.


Jason Concepcion We’ve seen it a. Jason Lannister steps to the king as the king is on his throne drinking and he’s got a gift, a freshly forged spear. And he’s like, Hey, I hope that you get to stab the white hart to death with this spear that I have had freshly forged for you. Also, I’d be a great husband to Rhaenyra and you know, you your house would have the benefit of my added strength. And the king is like, Do you think we need your strength? We have dragons. Do you feel that we’re weak? And Jason, not even realizing that he has stepped in it, continues to dig the spit.


Rosie Knight Walks straight into the trap.


Jason Concepcion Straight into a Casterly Rock is a splendid seat. Rhaenyra can take her place there by my side without shame and feel herself well compensated for the loss of her station. The king’s like, what? And he’s like, Yeah. You know, when you name Aegon the heir, like it will be a big deal because she’ll have this great house on Castle Rock and this is where Viserys’ patience runs dry. He says, Listen. Rhaenyra is my heir and any suggestion that she will not be my heir is essentially rebellion, which is punishable by death. So are you coming here to report rebellion to me?


Rosie Knight Yeah. Have your bannersmen been saying Rhaenyra’s not a good heir? Like, are you questioning me?


Jason Concepcion Jason gets at that point, starts to pee just a little bit, and he really. And then the king lays into it. He says, Listen, I named Rhaenyra my heir, and everyone needs to remember that. Now, bring me more wine and get the fuck out of here. Otto comes over and I don’t hear. I don’t usually. It is a very. Well, I was about to say he’s usually his timing is very good. And I forgot the time that right after the king that the queen and infant Prince Baelon had just died, and he came to suggest that maybe we should think about succession.


Rosie Knight Okay.


Jason Concepcion Here’s another.


Rosie Knight His timing’s good, unless he’s feeling greedy, his timing can be good, but he gets blinded by greed. And here’s another time.


Jason Concepcion That is that is exactly, exactly correct. Arrow comes up right after Jason and says, hey, we’re closing in on the stag. And what did you think of Jason Lannister’s proposal? He’s pretty good, right? The the princess will do whatever you command. Whatever you order her to do, she’ll do. You’re the king. And the king is like, I don’t want to command my daughter. I want her to be happy. And then Otto keeps going, not reading the signs here. So there’s another choice beyond Casterley Rock. And get this, marry the Princess Rhaenyra to Prince Aegon, my grandson, who is two years old. Targaryens do this. You know the Targaryens do this. And the king is like he’s hold on, he’s two. And it’s very clear by the king’s attitude and the way he is speaking to Otto that Otto needs to back off. Otto indeed does back off in the King. Continue to drink and drink and drink and drink


Rosie Knight Yeah. I also think this is very interesting. We talked a lot about how the show does a lot of character work. I think that this moment is very well set up by the failed. The failed kind of coalition that Corlys sent over because. Yeah, look, Alicent is still a child, right? But the idea of marrying a 12 year old was very disgusting to Viserys. For some reason, he couldn’t make the realization that they’re still he’s still old enough to be their granddad, let alone their dad, you know.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight But I think they set out really well here because, like, he just laughs in Otto’s face. Like, it’s the dumbest shit he’s ever had. He’s just like, what the fuck? That’s never going to happen. He’s two. So it’s those little bits of seeding here. And also Viscerys is actually I love this moment because it shows like he really despite all the politicking, the drink, everything else he does like really respect his daughter and he just knows he does that like a fucking no go. It’s so bad. And Otto really shows his nasty little hand here.


Jason Concepcion Also, I think everyone, Otto included, are under-rating the king. Viserys, for.


Rosie Knight Mm hmm.


Jason Concepcion For for as for as kind of like non authoritarian as he is is not dumb. She realizes that Jason Lannister and now Otto are pitching him marriage proposals that directly benefit them. This is.


Rosie Knight Exactly. Exactly.


Jason Concepcion Obviously, it benefits Otto if we marry Princeess Rhaenyra to Otto’s grandchild. Like, obviously.


Rosie Knight Yes that’s it’s also interesting because like it in this moment though like this is the first time that Otto’s done anything that would also benefit Rhaenyra. As grim as it is. Yeah, this.


Jason Concepcion As grim as it is.


Rosie Knight This is sort of like in the in the lore of Game of Thrones in the world. This is his olive branch of like, look, they can both be heir, they can both sit on the throne. They can do this together if we have this horrible, incestuous child marriage.


Jason Concepcion And and, you know, like it, we should also say that while it is like I’m sure Otto is like this is a great deal. This works for everybody. It’s also a deal where left unspoken is the fact that Rhaenyra would be the queen consort, not the ruler.


Rosie Knight Yeah. She would be. Yeah. Even Queen consort, even like Queen Regent depending, because she was already the heir and like the whole. But she’s never going to be the ruler. This this just doubly cements Aegon’s place but allows Rhaenyra to stay an heir. Though, the heir to what is the question?


Jason Concepcion Then Ser Lyonel comes up and he brings news that Christon went after Rhaenyra so don’t worry about it, she’s probably fine. And the king is seething at his daughter’s rebelliousness. He’s kind of feeling bad for himself at this point. And Lyonel quite generously points out that, Hey, King Jaehaerys, your grandfather dealt with this as well. He had multiple daughters. And this is true. He had multiple daughters that were kind of they bucked the kind of traditional role that is expected of royal women. And they had their own lives. And those lives were often seen as scandalous to the to the to the throne. And this gave Jaehaerys a lot of heartache. And Lyonel says It’s tradition, Your Grace, and that Viserys kind of nods at this and takes that in. And then Lord Lyonel says, Hey, I also have an opinion, by the way, about the the marriage issue with Rhaenyra and the King’s like, let me fucking guess, I can’t wait to guess. Let me guess. Your son, the future Lord of Heron Hall, Harwin Break Bones who is called Break Bones because he is the strongest knight in the realm. Usually, that is who Rhaenyra should marry. Do I have that right? And Lyonel was like, No, actually, you know, that’s very nice of you to say that. But no, I think that your daughter should marry Leonor Velaryon of House Velaryon. He’s got the Velaryon blood. He is the son of your niece, Princess Rhaenys. He’s rich. He is the heir to the House Velaryon, which is the most fabulously wealthy in the realm. And of course, this would help bring Corlys back into the fold. Just we hopefully Laenor doesn’t buy it on the Step Stones. You know, that’s the only thing. And the king, is absolutely slammer drunk. But he he you can tell he’s grateful for once today to get some advice from someone that doesn’t benefit the person who is giving him the advice like this is just good advice.


Rosie Knight This is this is another very interesting watch that person moment, because Lyonel Strong.


Jason Concepcion I agree.


Rosie Knight Advice is like so legit and so without agenda other than to protect the realm that it kind of reminds us of characters that we’ve seen in Game of Thrones past who will do anything to protect the realm. And that puts them in a very perilous but powerful place. I love this match, by the way. I know what happens because I’ve read the books. But I love, I am, I’m a fan of this match. And what we see at the end of the episode kind of hints that they could potentially be a good match in more ways than just the political one.


Jason Concepcion I like the match as well. In fact, it’s what it’s it’s almost like why has no one proposed this before? You know, like, it’s.


Probably because it’s too much of a good, strong match. It makes Viserysseries so much more powerful and it really seats the Targaryens in this power that while they have it at the moment, I think that they take it for granted. But this would be like a Velyrian powerhouse match.


Jason Concepcion I think that’s it. Otto and the rest of the people around the king don’t want this to happen because it weakens them.


Rosie Knight Also, dragons dragons, dragons, dragons, dragons, dragons coming together, you know.


Jason Concepcion Absolutely. I mean, you know, we shouldn’t. But let’s not discount the fact that Aegon being Otto’s grandson also, you know, Viserys’ child, but still Otto’s grandson. This puts a dragon potentially, you know, maybe two dragons because the queen is pregnant. This puts two dragons, you know, under the heading of House Hightower. So that would be that’s a big deal.


Rosie Knight It changes and it changes who a dragon rider can be. It changes who they are seen as being.


Jason Concepcion In the Kingswood. Criston Cole continues to try and convince Ron era to go back to the hunting camp and the Princess asks Cole if she thinks, if he thinks the realm will ever accept her as ruler and he gives her what I think is a pretty bad answer. I have no choice but to. Just say yes to this. This is one of the things I say. Like.


You can just say yes, you can just be like, we’ll make them. You can do some Jamie Lannister style, like sexy power ons where you’re like, Yeah, we will make them.


Jason Concepcion Yes. Then. Then there’s a pig attack and I hate when this happens.


Rosie Knight Just happens.


Jason Concepcion But of course it does happen. As we know from as we know from the end of Robert, King Robert Baratheon’s life. Pigs do attack out here in the woods and Cole and the Princess, then stab the shit out of the pig. Meanwhile, back at the royal camp, a drunken King Viserys is staring into a bonfire. The queen is like, Are you okay? And the king is frustrated because he named Rhaenyra his heir out of love to save the realm from Daemon, which is honestly like, thank you, King Viserys. And now everyone is up his ass all the time. And he knows somewhere inside of himself that there will probably be a war over this. You know, and he says that he tells Alicent about the dream, and doesn’t tell her, well, he tells tells Alicent about the dream that he had about his son when he told to Queen Aemma that his son would be born with King Aegon Crown on and that they placed the child upon the throne and yada, yada, yada. All the dragons with roar. And now he wonders if this dream that he had used as his North Star has led him astray. And surely also in his mind, it led Queen Aemma, who is his love to her death. And he says, I never imagined that I’d remarry, that I’d have a son. And he says, What if I was wrong? And he’s talking about this dream now. The next morning, the hung over king, they say, stabs an off white stag, a beige stag. The Huntsman, unable to locate this white hart.


Rosie Knight Yeah. This is definitely not the white hart. No question.


Jason Concepcion Definitely not. Unquestionably not the White Hart. But you know that Otto has been so concerned about symbols and perception and it’s not a great. But whoever is witnessing this scene a hung over, probably still drunk, King Viserys not being strong enough to stab a stag that is completely tied down, like cannot go anywhere.


Rosie Knight It’s a very pathetic moment, actually, just in general, like to have to go on a hunt and have men tie down your stag so that you can kill. It kind of goes against everything that the hunt is meant to stand for. But you also feel sorry for the king in that moment because he also doesn’t want to kill it. And it’s not the kind of stag he’s been promised. It’s very simple. Lots of symbolism in this episode, and this is a very sad moment.


Jason Concepcion Meanwhile, the princess, her face and hair caked with the blood of the pig that her and Ser Criston killed stopped rest. They can see the royal camp in the distance. And just as they are standing there with, a white heart, symbol of royal fortune and  and kingly virtue and authority, clomps up a few meters away from them and just stares at them. Criston starts to draw a sword, but Rhaenyra tells him no and the stag runs away. And then they stroll into camp with the pig dragged behind them, looking like victors coming back from war. Rosie, I ask you, was a right decision from Rhaenyra to not kill the white hart?


Rosie Knight I think, the, in the short time of if she had brought that stag back and had killed it with her own hand, which I feel like she kind of would of after we saw her stab the pig.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight In the short term, that probably would have put a lot of people on her side because of the superstitions around the white hart. But in the long term,  with the way that we know the animals and humans can connect in Game of Thrones, I think this was the right choice because I think that we saw a respect, a mutual respect between her and this white Hart. And the white Hart looked her in the eye. It was a very chills, kind of like dire wolf-esque, I don’t think that White Hart is going to become a companion, but I feel like there’s an acknowledgment that Rhaenyra is the rightful heir to the throne. The question is, how will she get to that throne and what does it mean? It’s kind of the monkeys, poor thing.


Rosie Knight What will that acknowledgment lead to?


Jason Concepcion I, I kind of feel very similar about it. I think that if she came back into camp with it. If she was prepared and had the allies to send the message that, Oh, doesn’t this symbolize that Rhaenyra is the rightful heir, just the rightful heir killed this symbol of kingly, rulership and authority. If she had those allies that could broadcast that message, I think that would be a great thing that it was come back in a camp with that heir. But seeing as how probably what would happen is Otto would say aye. Did you hear that the white stag symbol of royalty was killed on the birthday of my grandson.


Rosie Knight King Aegon. Exactly. Yeah.


Jason Concepcion Aegon, Future King Aegon. And I think he would clearly use that. So it’s a tough one. But I understand I understand why she said don’t kill it.


Rosie Knight Me, too. And I also do think that we kind saw her ealier on saying she didn’t like hunts and it kind of is again it speaks to her character where I feel like she has more respect for nature. Also, the other thing is it could be a little bit of the beginning of that cunning, because I think you’re right, that not only would Otto have used that in her in his favor, but he could have also seen her killing it or coming back with it as a huge threat. And it could have put her life in danger. I think that she might just be starting to understand the space that she is in, as the heir apparent, especially as her dad for the moment. And good on him, Viserys is like is actually standing by it to the.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight Fury of many people.


Jason Concepcion Many many, many people. The king in the court returned to King’s Landing. Otto goes to see Queen Alicent, and he makes some small talk with the hunt in Prince Aegon. And then he pushes his agenda. Aegon as heir. We got to get Aegon named heir. You got to do it. You’ve got to convince the king to do it. Aegon has united the kingdom. You see the hunt, you see how everybody was so happy that Aegon exists. And Alicent is clearly very cold to this, Otto says, he continues, It’s like the realms going to tear itself apart if Rhaenyra ascends. Alicent, again very supportive of her friend says, everybody swore to her. The whole realm swore to her, they knelt and said that they swore obeisance to her and Otto says that doesn’t matter. She’s a she. You have to convince the king. So Alicent goes to see the king. The king is hung over. Alicent brings she’s she’s like, I want to talk about something. And the king thinks she wants to talk about Rhaenyra, which is probably true. But then Alicent sees a letter from Vaemond Velaryon, Corlys’ brother, begging for help on the Step Stones. The war is going badly. Daemon and Corlys are flat out losing. So Alicent says something, I think very wise to the king. What would you do if you could just do whatever you want? And the king knows that no matter what he does and this is this is a really telling scene for where the king is. He’s we’ve watched him be completely isolated from everyone this entire episode. He knows it no matter what he does. Someone’s going to be really, really mad.


Rosie Knight Mm hmm.


Jason Concepcion And then Alicent says, I think something very wise here, she says, is better for the realm of the Crab Feeder thrives or is vanquished. And the king makes a decision. So the next day, the king sends.


Rosie Knight Yet I just thought that’s interesting as well, because earlier on we saw her dad say, don’t fucking do that. He was like, yes, you look weak. So she’s actively going against her father, but not in a malicious way in actually like with a very good bit of wise decision making.


Jason Concepcion I agree. And it’s and it’s one of those you talked about the monkeys paw. This whole episode is like a monkey’s paw. Everybody has what they want, but now having it, they realize that things are worse than they ever have been. King Viserys is has a male heir, but now everybody is on his ass to name that male child, his heir, and he is bedeviled by this. Princess Rhaenyra is the heir, and yet she finds no one respects her. Otto has managed to place his daughter on the throne, and yet now she has a mind of her own, is not listening to him, and is in fact giving the King advice that directly goes against the advice that he had just given the king. So it’s like everybody is fine. And then Daemon and Corlys are on the Step Stones of their own accord and are trapped there and are losing a war. So everybody has has accomplished the thing that they were setting out to do, but only to find that it’s it’s an empty victory. The next day, the King sends a letter of support to Daemon. You know, they’re sending supplies, they’re sending ships, they’re sending men. Princess Rhaenyra and the King have an argument. Rhaenyra says, like, you’re getting ready to replace me with Aegon, your son. You want to ship me out of here to Csterly Rock or whoever else you can manage to take me and the king, very, very supportive of Rhaenyra says, No.


Rosie Knight Mm hmm.


Jason Concepcion I want you to be content. I want you to be happy. Rhaenyra then makes actually a good point that if if this was about happiness, if marriage was about just a tool of state, if you were just going to marry me purely strategically, like, why didn’t you would have done that for yourself. You would have married Leana Velaryon. And he says, that’s a good point. That’s true. And so the king then insists that, listen, marrying it’s the right move. We need to shore up your support, show the realm that there is stability here because you are going to produce heirs. And then in a very touching moment says, go, go find whoever you want. Follow your heart. Just find someone that you can fall in love with and I’ll support it. And he says, I swear to you, now, on your mother’s memory, you will not be supplanted. A really, really beautiful moment. From father to daughter. On the Step Stones, the Targaryen Velaryon Alliance is showing its cracks. Corlys insists that they have to press the attack while awaiting the reinforcements. This is one of the quietly funniest moments in the show. Corlys has had some really funny moments. This is like we have 16, maybe 18 ships. And just as he says that, you see.


Rosie Knight Yeah, yeah.


Jason Concepcion You see that? You see like a Crab Feeder, like catapult. Shoot it like a flaming rock into one of his ships and destroy it just as he like. So we got 16 or e17, 17, 18 ships and it’s like right over his shoulder, whatever she was getting absolutely murked. Yeah,  like.


Rosie Knight This is like a really interesting moment because I feel like and up until now we’ve had a very small cast of characters and Corlys has been on the edge of it. But we start to understand a little bit more about the Velaryon family and.


Jason Concepcion Yes.


Rosie Knight Conflicts and contrasts and the agendas that each of them have just in this really small scene. It’s very cool.


Jason Concepcion So Corlys is like we got to press the attack while we’re waiting for reinforcements and stuff on Driftmark. Leanor is like, no, the Crab Feeder’s position is too strong. We’ve been doing this for two, three years. We can’t get into the caves and our hired soldiers don’t want to do a mop up operation fighting for every inch of the caves while they die in large numbers like they want the easiest fight possible. And we have a we have dragons, so why aren’t we? We have to figure out a way to do this easier. Here is my plan, Laenor and then proposes something. He says we bait the Crab Feeder out. We get them out the caves and we finish them off. We we have to send somebody in as bait and Vaemond Velaryon is like, that’s not going to work. It seems like there’s maybe a mutiny about to go off until Corly kind of settles everybody down. And then Daemon lands. He’s come from another strafing run on the back axes. He looks at the demoralized troops. Just then, a messenger from King’s Landing arrives. Daemon reads the letter. It is the letter announcing the king is sending support and Daemon then loses his shit and beats the brakes off the messenger, isn’t there, Rosie? There’s a saying right about the messenger, something about.


Rosie Knight Don’t beat the messenger with your metal armor helmet, don’t shoot the messenger. You know, I think we had it. Yeah, at last. Daemon has not heard that saying. And that I heard that fucking smashed.


Jason Concepcion Not heard that that’s an unwise thing to do. This is also a small book change in the books. Daemon does beat the messenger, but the messenger arrives with news that the king and queen have a son that they then named Aegon. So this has been changed a little bit.


Rosie Knight I like this book. It seems like the king is it seems like the king is helping him because it’s his brother and that’s how he sells it to Rhaenyra. But you realize from Daemon’s reaction that really it’s shady as fuck. Because he’s basically like. It’s basically like, hey, you can’t do this. You haven’t done it for two years, so I’m going to come in and help you out. And obviously Daemon’s like, Fuck you. And then we see what happens.


Jason Concepcion That is exactly Daemon’s attitude was I tried to do something on my own and I was not able to accomplish it. And now there’s help coming. And so Daemon is like, Well, I guess I’ll be the bait since this is my last chance to get this done before help arrives and add this to my resume. So Daemon heads over to the Crab Feeder defenses. Past the ruined bodies. He’s carrying a white flag and seems like he’s going to surrender Crab Feeder comes out to see what’s up. Daemon takes out Dark Sister. He’s holding it up, but it’s clear that he’s offering it up as a as a symbol of his surrender. And this is also again, this is a Valyrian steel sword, there’s not, they’re not making more of these not kind of like makes it even richer.


Rosie Knight Yeah. This is like.


Jason Concepcion An even richer prize.


Rosie Knight You should know they’re not going to give it up, but at the same time, you couldn’t not come out just in case he was going to give up like you. It’s a very smart play.


Jason Concepcion And of course, this is all a trick as the Crab Feeder’s men are coming out to surround Daemon. Daemon then goes like absolutely super scion and goes like 1 v 30 guys like kills like 30 dudes. Meanwhile, you know Laenor Velaryon on Sea Smoke is strafing everybody and Corlys ground troops get into it and the battle rages. And then later we see Daemon, who has pursued Craghas Drahar to the caves, dragging half of Craghas Drahar, the Crab Feeder out onto the beach.


Rosie Knight Might not be a good idea, but we’ll get into that in a minute.


Jason Concepcion R.I.P. the Crab Feeder and Daemon got it done. Shouts to him. Really our first real battle episode, and it looks great.


Rosie Knight Also, let’s give the let’s give some credit to Leonhard because he said Daemon should be the bait. He this was his plan he comes in was plan save if anything. This to me on a completely objective not any context from outside of the show this to me just shores up the potential for him to be that great match because this is.


Jason Concepcion I agree.


Rosie Knight This is going to be told coral, this is not going to not let this get back to the king. What really happened.


Jason Concepcion I come. I completely agree. And the other thing is how often it was clear as Laenor was strafing and diving on the back of Sea Smoke and like yelping with glee as he was doing it. How rare it is to see someone like really happy and thrilled that they’re doing something. And Laenor was like having a grand old time on the back of Sea Snake.


Rosie Knight So I could see him. I could see him and Rhaenyra, flying their dragons together. You know, it feels.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight It feels like they have this shared interest in. In being kind of like the. They like to come in with the save. They’ve both done it now for like one against them and one for Daemon. You know, it’s very interesting.


Jason Concepcion Very interesting. And then again, this is a this is an episode where I you I really rue how Rhaenyra really to no fault of her own squandered what was an incredible victory on Dragonstone.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion And is now at the point where everybody everybody’s completely forgotten about it. Like forgotten about it. No one talks about it. It is not been it. She can’t use that as part of her resume to be ruler. It’s just a moment has completely passed. It was an incredible victory. And now she’s competing literally with a baby who people can’t wait to put on the throne.


Rosie Knight Yes.


Jason Concepcion And it has done nothing.


Rosie Knight I wonder as well if this actually could be a sticking point between her and Laenor, because he will surely be cheered as a major part of that victory in a way that she never was. And that kind of constant being pitted against other people, I think is just absolutely decimating her kind of self-confidence, but also interestingly decimating like her care about the throne. She’s very devil may care in this episode.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight So she kind of doesn’t really give a shit. And I. And I feel like that could serve her very well in one direction or serve her very badly if the wrong person comes and tells her what she should care about.


Jason Concepcion I wonder how much things would change for her if she understood how much support Queen Alicent really is giving behind the scenes. Like is is doing legitimately everything that she can do to support Rhaenyra as a friend. And even like it, though, kind of indirectly, as the heir is saying all the time to her dad, listen. The king wants this. This is the king’s decision. The king is kind of set in his ways. She’s not really taking a position for herself, but is saying like the king has decided this.


Rosie Knight Yeah, I know it’s not going to happen because they’re not going to stray this far from the book. But like, there’s the way they’re playing it in the show so far. You could almost see a world where. Alicent and and Rhaenyra are the ones who end up coming together to work out a way for them to both sit on for them to both have the power of the realm. It’s not realistic. It’s not going to happen. But they they sell it so well. And Alicent, the depth of character they’ve given her and the loyalty that she has to Rhaenyra and also just the great arc that Rhaenyra’s getting as this kind of like frustrated but not be endowed queen I would just love to see that as the the surprise I don’t think is going to go that way. But it’s it’s really fun that they can even make us question what we know is going to happen just by how well they’re rounding out these characters.


Jason Concepcion And the other thing that we like easy to forget is. These are like 16, 17 year old girls like they they are kids and are forced into this position where they are, have great influence on matters of state that are super, super important. At the same time, they are still just kids, like trying to do the best that they can.


Rosie Knight Okay. I’m going to ask you the big question which I feel like is.


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Yeah


Rosie Knight The Crab Feeder. He’s dead. R.I.P. the Crab Feeder, which is kind of crazy.


Jason Concepcion R.I.P.


Rosie Knight That was like a big antagonist for these first three episodes. I did not see the death coming.


Jason Concepcion R.I.P..


Rosie Knight We got to see him. You’re. I know you’re going to give us some good facts about his mask, because that’s some really cool shit. But what about his bad skin? Because I feel like we’re watching it and we’re thinking, that’s grayscale. You have to think it looks kind of like grayscale that’s been healed or been taken off. So what do you think about that?


Jason Concepcion It seems. So. It seems as if the actor has confirmed that that is grayscale, although we don’t have a it’s we’re looking for an authoritative answer on that. We can’t see it. But absolutely right. That does look like grayscale. And if the origins of Craghas Drahar, where he’s from are kind of obscure but we can there are certain context clues to the mask which is very similar to what Sons of the Harpy mask, which would seem to suggest Slavers Bay something of the old Gist culture. And in that area of Essos they would have people are very, very familiar with grayscale. And while it is very hard to cure, we have seen that it can be cured.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion You know, Stannis notably spared absolutely no expense to cure Shireen and managed to do so, although the the you know, the evidence of the disease still remained on her, but as it seems to have on the Crab Feeder. So I think it’s it’s. We can assume that because of familiarity that that the Crab Feeder, because of where he’s from, where we can guess that he’s from, would have had with grayscale that it seems like this is a cured case of grayscale, though although he is, skin still looks pretty rough.


Rosie Knight Yes.


Jason Concepcion But it’s absolutely reasonable to assume that this is a cured case of grayscale.


Rosie Knight And if you if you I’m going into Ask the Maester a bit early by asking you questions like.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight Okay. What do you think about. I think another big thing that we’re wondering is like Daemon drags him out skin to skin. So is he fully cured? Is that going to come back to bite Daemon Are we going to end up in a. Daemon with grayscale situation?


Jason Concepcion That is, you shouldn’t. Well, once it’s cured, it’s basically inert as we saw it.


Rosie Knight Shouldn’t be able to be passed on


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Shireen. Shireen had the markings grayscale on her face, but was not passing the disease on to anyone else once it had been cured. That said, you still shouldn’t do this.


Rosie Knight This is a bad idea.


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Yeah. Be careful with this. Don’t touch that. But again, this. The people in this world are familiar with what this diseases and certainly the TARGARYENS would have been very familiar with what this disease is. So I guess one is to assume that Daemon, if he recognized grayscale, would would look at Craghas Drahar and say, okay, this is a non transmissible form of the disease or cured form of the disease. And I can touch this guy, but still, you shouldn’t do that.


Rosie Knight It’s gross,  please  don’t do that.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, yeah. Please don’t do that. Okay, let’s go to let’s go to Ask the Maester.


Jason Concepcion <A.D.>.


Jason Concepcion And to celebrate, we’re returning to the Citadel to answer your question.


Rosie Knight Okay, first question. Eric asks If the Iron Throne can reject people and cut them, are we to believe the throne viewed anyone who sat on it during Game of Thrones, specifically Cersei and Joffrey, as worthy? Why were they never cut by the throne?


Jason Concepcion This is a great an interesting question. First of all, we should we should note that we’re talking about a chair made of blades and that small nicks and cuts were surely like common. And it would probably only be the ones that were either serious or happened to a ruler who people were already predisposed to not like. Those were the ones that we noticed that said, let’s let’s talk about this idea that the throne can reject someone. This is based primarily on one example, and that is the mysterious death of Maegor the Cruel, the third Targaryen King. As the supporters of Jaehaerys Targaryen were closing on the Capitol. Maegor, who still held power at that time, was holding a council of war. With a few commanders, the very few commanders that were still loyal to him. They left him late into the night. And the next morning, Queen Eleanor, who was one of the so-called black brides, one of this trio of women that he that Maegor had married in order to increase the potential for him to create an heir, walks into the throne room and she finds Meg or dead on the throne. Now the world of Ice and Fire, which is kind of like a compendium, a kind of examination of all the places and histories of places geographically in the world of Ice and Fire describes Maegor’s end as thusly. It says Maegor had, quote, his arms slashed open by the barbs of the Iron Throne. Now, Fire and Blood, the history book upon which House of the Dragon is primarily based, describes it this way. Quote, His arms had been slashed open from the elbow on jagged barbs, and another blade had gone through his back to emerge under his chin. Now, we should add that the world of Ice and ire, the picture in the world of Ice and Fire does show also the blade coming out from through his back and under his chin. But it’s not described in the text. You know. So whatever the case may be, those things seem like they align, although it’s really the it’s really the barb through the back. That is the mysterious one. Right. So the last people to see Maegor alive were Lord Tower Towers of Heron Hall at that time. That line is extinct. And Lord Rosby of Rosby. Now by that point, Maegor, It was very clear that he was going to lose. And also, he was widely reviled by basically everyone. He was seen as an accursed figure. So. If we go by the description of what we see, in A World of Ice and Fire, that it’s just that his arms, his forms, his wrist were torn up by the chair. It’s possible that this is either an accidental death or he took his own life, or potentially Lord Towers and Lord Rosby killed him in a way that would look accidental. Right? More mundane. In other words, it is possible that Maegor died in in a more mundane way. Now, when you add the fact that apparently a blade from the back of the chair changed position and stabbed him through the back. Now we’re starting to enter into a magical realm. And so when we go to your question, Eric, which is why weren’t Joffrey, why weren’t Cersei cut? Let’s let’s take it from a magical standpoint. It may just be, one, that first of all, Joffrey and Cersei reigns were very, very short. Maegor ruled for six years, which is pretty short for Targaryen Kings. On the shorter end of the spectrum. Joffrey reigned for, according to the books, like about two years. And Cersei we don’t know because the books haven’t gotten there. But judging from the show.


Rosie Knight Shorter.


Jason Concepcion Much shorter, much shorter than Joffrey. So they wouldn’t have a lot of chances to be cut by and or rejected by the throne. And secondarily, I think if we do take a magical explanation for Maegor’s end to the throne rejecting him because he was such an increased figure king slayer should you know, had gone into a very, very destructive religious war in Westeros with the supporters of the Faith of the Seven that we should remember that magic by the time of Game of Thrones had disappeared from the world. And. It is the linkage between dragons and magic. While it’s not like concrete is heavily implied and it’s heavily implied in Game of Thrones and the Song of Ice and Fire books that it’s the rebirth of Danny’s Dragons that brings magic back into the world. And as we’ve seen from House of the Dragons, magic is a much more present thing. Not in the sense that we’re seeing magical events taking place, but we hear Viserys talk about the blood mages. Right. We see that people talk about magicians, mages, magical events and and take dragons as just part of the world. They see those things as just kind of being normal, even though magic is not like there aren’t magicians, like conjuring things all the time. So all of which is to say, during Maegor’s time, we should assume that magic was stronger and whatever happened to him. If it is indeed of magical origin, is in some way linked to the fact that magic at that time was just stronger, a stronger presence in the world.


Rosie Knight Okay. Aaron asks this, this a good one. I bet a lot of House the Dragon people are wondering this. Yeah, there’s a lot of Aegon Targaryen in the history of Westeros. Could you give a quick explainer on all the Aegons?


Jason Concepcion So Aegon the Conqueror obviously is a legendary and just a Titanic figure. And after conquering Westeros beside his two sisters, Rhaenys and Visenya, it has become like a byword for the right to rule and authority. I don’t want to go into all the Aegon’s because I think there’s some spoiler stuff there. But I will say that Aegon is it’s a very common name among the Targaryen family. And there are many, many, many Aegon’s. And there have been five Aegon’s, including the Conqueror, who go on to rule Westeros. Some of the most interesting ones are the last two. Aegon the Unworthy who is the fourth Targaryen named Aegon to sit on the throne. He was a, a, like a prisoner of his own appetites. He loved sex. He loved eating. He loved drinking. He was a glutton. And he produced a lot of bastard children. And he made the tremendously unwise decision to legitimize them all, towards the end of his life. Which caused just a series of succession problems, including the really destructive civil wars called the Blackfire rebellions, of which there have been several. And this all happened primarily because Aegon the Unworthy, legitimized, again, all those bastards, and the main one being Daemon Blackfire, one of his most famous bastards, who he also gave Aegon the Conqueror a sword Black Fire to, which led a lot of people to say, Well, I guess that guy should rule then, because he or she has to sword of Aegon on the Conquerer, yadda, yadda, yadda. Then came Aegon the fifth, Aegon the Unlikely. We talked about him a bit when we talked about the kind of the baton pass of the Aegon prophecy from ruler to heir. Aegon the fifth came to power in a very interesting way. Again, there was no clear heir and so the Lords all got together to decide who should be next. The throne was initially offered to his brother Aemmon, who passed and then went to the Night’s Watch to become Maester Aemmon of the wall. And. We talked about the idea that Aegon the fifth, Aegon the Unlikely, who then became King and his brother Aemmon and the the person who became the Three-Eyed Crow. And then Brendan Rivers, who was a by the way, one of Aegon the Unworthy’s bastards all seemed. Their movements and the way that. Aegon passed the right to rule to his brother. And then the fact that they all went to the wall and that this all happened during a really, really bad winter, which marked the beginning of Aegon the Fifth’s rule all seems like a reaction to this Aegon prophecy and some sort of plot by them to prepare for the potential that this winter that they were in the midst of could be that kind of apocalyptic winter, the showdown between Fire and Ice. So all of which is to say, because of Aegon the Conqueror’s you know, history changing success in Westeros. It is it’s just a fact of life that the Targaryens, in order to kind of seem as if that they are the inheritors of that authority, would name their kids Aegon as much as they could. It’s kind of like why there have been like 11 King Edward’s 12. King Edward’s in England like that.


Rosie Knight Yeah. Lots of Henrys.


Jason Concepcion People re-using these names. Yes. Many Henrys.


Rosie Knight Symbolism, symbolism, baby. Okay, Heather. Heather asks, I’m curious about the succession laws of Westeros. Do they specifically preclude women from holding the throne or seats of power? Or is it just tradition slash patriarchy bullshit?


Jason Concepcion Yeah. I mean, it’s a little bit of both. The Great Council of 101, which we saw opening our show selected King Viserys as the heir to King  Jaehaerys rejecting the claim of Princess Rhaenys. Now, this is a slight change from the books. In the books. It came down to Rhaenys was rejected earlier rounds and it came down to Laenor versus Viserys in the final. And but regardless of that, change the outcome. What the realm took from that council was essentially the same. And that was that at this huge council, this great meeting of of more nobles than ever, been gathered in the history of Westeros together to make a decision. The decision was made that succession passes through the male line. And that women can’t inherit the throne. That was that was the message they took from it. Now, in the books. I would argue that that was that was actually the wrong message they took because Laenor was like seven at the time. And so really what the realm was rejecting as much as rejecting inheriting through the female line, because that part of the reason that they said Laenor couldn’t inherit was he was coming to the throne through his mother, Rhaenys. So Rhaenys was rejected. And on the same basis that Rhaenys was rejected, that that authority can’t pass through the female line authority then can’t pass through the female line to the son of the female, that being Laenor. So therefore, Laenor also could not be king. That said, Laenor’s age was also a significant factor. He was seven. That would meant a regency. That means you put together a ruling council of different nobles would rule in the name of Laenor until he comes of age. And that is very, very messy. It leads to a lot of power struggles could easily lead to war, assassinations, etc.. This is not a it’s just a thing the realm would seek to avoid. So in the books, even though the realm took the lesson that, okay, the female line is rejected. What they should have also taken is that we should avoid regencies. With like let’s, you know we should, it’s like if there’s an adult that we can make king over a child. Let’s prefer to do that. So your answer is basically yes, it is patriarchy bullshit, but it is also tradition as as codified by the Great Council of 101 and previous decisions. There were also previous councils and previous decisions that it kind of like moved in that direction, but it was really the great council of 101 that that set that into law.


Rosie Knight Okay. This is more of a comment than a question, but I do think it’s interesting one. So Michael says, I have been watching House of D with a friend who is a nurse practitioner and by episode two and they showed pictures and she said, Oh, he has diabetes wounds that won’t heal and losing extremities. This episode makes a point to note his rich diet. Sounds like a rap to me. So, Jason, do you think he has diabetes.


Jason Concepcion Diabetes? I think it’s I wouldn’t put it. I think I would not put that past the king as a possibility. Gout was.


Rosie Knight Yes.


Jason Concepcion Gout often referred to.


Rosie Knight Gout is high up on the list.


Jason Concepcion Gout is you know, I’m not we’re not doctors here, but gout is often a pre diabetic illness. And it has been called the rich man’s disease.


Rosie Knight Henry VIII got gout a lot  and we know this is taking a lot from his kind of real.Life.


Jason Concepcion So it would not surprise me if what  Viserys suffering from is gout. That’s a great comment, Mike.


Rosie Knight Yeah. And okay, so this is really interesting and I think we kind of touched on it, but it got too deep. So Mason asks, Do you think Rhaegar chose Laenna because of Aegon’s Song of Ice and Fire Prophecy? Would Rhaegar have told Laenna about the prophecy and the importance of their son?


Jason Concepcion That’s a great. It is a great question. I think I want to be careful here because I think the thing about Rhaegar and Laena’s relationship is that it was mutual.


Rosie Knight It was a rare, pure love match. Even if it came from a place that maybe had that mindset.


Jason Concepcion I don’t want to. I really. Even though we don’t know. I want to be careful and not frame it as Rhaegar choosing her. I think they chose each other. I think they fell in love with each other and that the passion of that once regard took note of her lineage. It seemed to support, I think, what Rhaegar already knew about the prophecy. So did he tell her? We have no way of knowing clearly. But I think he did.


Rosie Knight I think he did.


Jason Concepcion I think. I think he marched off to war.


Rosie Knight That closeness and their love and and how it kind of goes against every other relationship we’ve seen in Game of Thrones. I think he told her.


Jason Concepcion I think he told her. I think he marched off to fight at the Ruby Ford. And understanding that he might not come back, told Laena. Here is the importance of this and not only that but then had her. Like I had her ensconced safely away from the fighting at the Tower of Joy, this remote area of Dorne, with three members of the Kingsguard, which tells you this is the future king. I think all of that leads you to believe that he would have shared this with her. Now, the question is, and I don’t have a good answer for it. Did Laena then tell Ned in her dying moments the Promise Me Ned moment from the books which we know about, but we don’t know what was said in her as she’s dying in the so-called bed of blood. Does she tell Ned? I think she probably tells Ned. Certainly she tells Ned that Rhaegar did not kidnap me. We were in love. We got married. This is his rightful heir. I don’t know if she would have told him two things. I don’t know if she would have told him the prophecy. And I don’t know if Ned, having heard the prophecy, would have given a shit about it.


Rosie Knight Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’d like to not send that hundred year lineage to him. He would just be sorry. You’re dying, right? You’re right. They’ve been on vapors. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah, I think. I think that’s. I think that’s true. I’m really interested to see if we ever get a confirmation on that from George, because I think that it draws so many interesting questions that I think everyone wants to know.


Jason Concepcion I think it’s likely that if let’s say Lyanna told them. I think probably the way Ned would have received that is here is my sister, who I dearly loved and the child who she also loves. And I will do anything to protect him. And this stuff about the prophecy and yada, yada, yada, it’s whatever. I don’t yeah. I think it was more about the fact that this is his sister’s son and that he wanted to protect her and less about this kind of prophecy, which I doubt he would have put any stock into.


Rosie Knight Yeah. Okay. So Lectionary asks this is cool. I like this kind of. I like this.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Rosie Knight Pondering seeing the chess like figures when Rhaenyra was evaluating the Knights in episode two made me question Are there chess like board games in Westeros?


Jason Concepcion Yeah, in the books there’s a game called Cyvasse, which is basically that world version of chess. It originated in the free cities of Volantis and then actually came to Westeros pretty recently, at least recently in the history of the story. Traders brought it to Dorne, about three years before Robert’s Rebellion. So in the last years of King Aerys, the Mad King’s reign by the time of the book Feast for Crows, which is the fourth book in this in the series, the game had become really a fad among the nobility, the westerosi elite, like people were learning it in the court at the at King’s Landing. We see it being played at Dorne. And we also see that Tyrion is playing it among the various cell swords that he’s hanging out with during Dance of Dragons. But that would make sense because over in Essos, where the game came from, you would imagine that it would be more popular with the kind of more common classes at that time. The game has ten pieces, the most powerful of which being the dragon. But we really don’t know how the rules work. And George R.R. Martin hasn’t really clarified how exactly the game works. But certainly by the time Feast for Crows happens, it is we understand that it is a popular game and it’s a game that people are playing quite a lot and it seems to be a game that people are using in that world as a metaphor for strategy and as a metaphor for the kind of broader conflicts that are going on in that world at that time.


Rosie Knight Okay. Trevor asks. I’m sure a lot of people are wondering this as well. Has the Step Stones War been going on for two plus years? How far away of the Step Stones from the Driftmark? Pretty close, right? It’s not that there was a ton of travel time for Corlys ships to reach the Step Stones. So is there is a 2 to 3 year war that’s not technically even  a war normal?


Jason Concepcion Yeah. It’s it’s first of all, the Step Stones are not really that close to Driftmark. From a logistics standpoint, it’s a little bit of a nightmare for Corlys to have to constantly be sending ships down from Driftmark to the Step Stones to resupply. And the other part of this is that Driftmark, as we kind of said during our recap, it’s not a though. The House Velaryon is incredibly wealthy. The island of Driftmark is not like rich in population. So there’s not this like vast supply of manpower that Corlys can call upon, which is why, as they note, that their their ground forces are significantly amplified by stealth swords, which we imagine they get from Essos. On top of that, who’s footing the bill for this? Do we think that Daemon is is opening his wallet for this? Probably no. Right. Like Daemon’s bringing the dragon. And I would imagine Daemon saying, well, I’m bringing the dragon and you guys can bring the ships in the money. Right. So it’s this, all of which is to say this is a real quagmire for Corlys and Daemon, that their manpower is is significantly buoyed by people they hired, not people that are loyal necessarily to them. And secondarily, how can how can Corlys pull out? His strength is at sea. All his what he is known for is I am the most badass captain that has ever lived in this world. If he gets defeated. In a sea campaign. Yes, there’s significant fighting on the land. And the way the Crab Feeder is resisting is by hiding underground. That said, what people are going to take from this is Corlys Velaryon got defeated at sea.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion That can’t happen. That he can’t let that happen because, you know, Westeros and this kind of like feudal power structure is highly competitive and it would be an immense loss of honor and station if Corlys retreats from this fight that he willingly entered into. He has to win. He has got to win. And it is is it normal for a war to to go on for this long? Yeah. Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros with three dragons. He conquered, basically, the entire continent. You know, everyone, including the the north bowed to him. Except for Dorne. Dorne used much of the same kind of strategy. The Crab Feeder is using now, which is don’t enter into open warfare with dragons, hide from them when they appear and when they fly away, come out and harass the forces that you can see. But don’t enter into these kind of like set, set piece battles with dragons. And guess what? Dorne is not part of the realm. Still to this day, 100 years after Aegon the Conqueror came and will not be for years after this House of the Dragon story is over. So yes, it is absolutely the case that dragons can be resisted. And we should not forget the fact that one of the dragons that Aegon came with, the dragon of Queen Rhaenys, died over Helmholtz in Dorne, shot through the eye by a scorpion stinger. And we don’t know, actually, what happened to Queen Rhaenys’. It’s there’s a lot of rumors. Did she die when her dragon crashed into Hell Hole? Was she held prisoner? There is like a very, very secret letter that was sent to King Aegon that he read that no one knows the contents of that. So that is, we can suspect had to do with Queen Rhaenys, but we don’t actually know what happened. All of which is to say dragons can be killed. Dragons can be resisted simply by hiding from them. So it is not it is not weird that this war would stretch on for two or three years. That is it. Don’t miss the new HBO original series, House of the Dragon, now streaming on HBO, Max. If you have more questions, of course we welcome them. Please send them to Up next, a conversation about She-Hulk between Rosie and She-Hulk writer and X-ray Vision co-host Cody Zig Ziglar.


Rosie Knight This week in the hive mind, where we bring on experts, usually me and Jason with some guests to discuss their work and more. X ray Vision is thrilled to welcome back our good bud She-Hulk staff writer, Emmy nominee, Spider punk headbanger, general, incredible person and of course X-ray Vision co-host, when I’m lucky enough to have him, Cody Ziglar, to talk about episode four of She-Hulk, which is maybe the best episode yet, definitely the funniest.


Cody Ziglar Thanks for having me back. It’s always a pleasure doing that. We’re going to yell about things that are both dear to our heart comic books, so it’s a perfect way to spend a afternoon.


Rosie Knight I feel like we’re going to do a lot of yelling this episode.


Cody Ziglar I feel like it always happens.


Rosie Knight Definitely. Me and you are  big yellers and talkers  anyway.


Cody Ziglar Yes.


Rosie Knight I feel like when you put us in a room, it’s like we can get very excited. Okay. So before I want to talk about episode four, obviously it’s amazing. It’s going to be out when the episode’s out. There’s every episode of the show is my favorite episode as we go in, but four is currently there. But first, because I feel like we never really got to talk about this. When you were on the show more regularly as one of our amazing co-hosts like. How did you get involved in She-Hulk? What was that arc like for you?


Cody Ziglar I mean, it’s a very it’s a very funny and like weird story. It’s like the long that’s the shortest answer is that like I was producing podcast ad for the show called Yo, is this Racist? And one of the cohost, Tony Newsome, she had booked the show Space Force. So she had to go shoot in the desert basically for like four months. And she’s like, hey, do you want to be a guest host on this? Because it just make your job easier since you’re already producing and cutting it. It’s like, yeah, sure, whatever. And I did it. And the other co-host, Andrew T, was like, Hey, I can’t tell you what it’s for, but someone heard you on the show and they thought you were funny and they want to know if you had a sample. I was like, Great, sure, let’s do it. So I gave my sample. But before that, maybe a week before that, I had met Jessica Gao, the showrunner, at like a dinner we had after we followed show on Twitter, blah, blah, blah. And then like maybe a month later, my manager called me like, Hey, Marvel wants to meet with you. I was like, Me? Why did they get the right Cody Ziglar? Like, Yeah, dude, I guess you got to figure it out. And I walked in and I saw Jessica there and she’s just like, Oh, hey, what’s up, dude? I thought you’re funny. I heard you in the show, and I wondered if you had a sample. Welcome to the big leagues. I’m like, that’s how I got the job. Was basically she we met eating way too much food and then she thought I was funny and she asked me to be to be in the room in, like, my role. Besides, Deb Wells was very much the MCU comic book nerd in the room. So like whenever they needed, like a, like a villain for The Wrecking Crew or like, yeah, this character, like, we were very much those guys and then, all right, great. Now calm down and let the adults go back to, like, doing the real work.


Rosie Knight I just then in that case, I have to thank you because like the Wrecking Crew are like, God-tier in our house. So I was like, I was like screaming. And I have like theories about that going forward, but I love that I got to be your role because that is really that’s how we both ended up on this show. We just love his stuff and we talk about it a lot. So yeah, yeah. That’s kind of the dream. And Jessica so great. Like I got to interview for the for the junket her and Cat and they were both just when you speak to them you just immediately understand how the show is so good. You just you get the vibe.


Cody Ziglar So funny like she’s so funny. She for my money, I mean, obviously, I’m biased cause I wrote for the show, too, but, like, I think she wrote my favorite episode of Rick and Morty, which is people really watch that, and you’re like, Oh, yeah, she knows what she’s doing.


Rosie Knight Like, when I found that out, I was like, Wow. I was like, I have talked to a legend because my nephew, one obviously I probably one of the most iconic episodes of Rick and Morty, which means it’s one of the most iconic episodes of adult animation. But yes, my nephew loves Pickle Rick. My nephew has Pickle. Rick Toys. My nephew sings the Pickle Rick Song. My


Cody Ziglar That’s so funny.


Rosie Knight So like when I found that out, I was like, I’m going to get cool points. Aside from the fact that the show is great.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight So. We’re going to be four episodes in when this airs, but three episodes in. How does it feel to like, see, you know, we follow each other on social. We see all the fun memes, we send them to each other and stuff. But like, how’s it been for you to see people just embrace the vibe of the show and the comedy and the tone and just something that’s totally different than what we’ve seen in the MCU before.


Cody Ziglar Dude, it’s it’s so fucking surreal because, like, you know, this, like we wrote this in like 2019 was like, yeah, like November 2019 was like the first day that we started. So, like, we wrote this stuff and this is before like, you know, really I think Gao to this all that Jessica, I call her Gao, says  this all the time. She’s like vision walk. So we could run this like, no, no one expected. Like, this level of shit posed like that didn’t exist back then. Like you just wrote a show that you thought were funny and you didn’t think that anyone’s going to latch on to, like, vision wearing, like, a black turtleneck and making him like and the.


Rosie Knight Chain.


Cody Ziglar Faternity. Yeah. Like no one would put a picture that’s like we didn’t picture that like people were going to latch on to like, you know, step on me mommy. Like, you know, that was going to be the, the energy for social media post for for the show. It’s just been really cool seeing like people like, really dig it and also just like seeing like the real, like She-Hulk like, yeah, you know, you’re on set and you see Tatiana in like the gray, like gray makeup and stuff on my platforms. You’re like, I don’t know how this is going to like be a real thing. Like, how does this work? Like I’ve seen it happen, but like, you know, and the moment you’re like, you’re looking at like PlayStation three graphics, you’re like, oh man, how does this become a real person? And then like so like the VFX team puts in tons and tons and tons and tons of work and makes it a real thing. And like now that people are actually out and enjoying it, it’s been really cool. I’m super stoked. Like it’s been a very, very surreal, surreal year.


Rosie Knight Yeah, I, I, you’re definitely right about how the, the shit post conversation set you guys up so perfectly to be in conversation with fans in a way that, like none of us could have even seen, like the meme-ification of the MCU is incredible. And so like, again, you know, it’s funny because I’m just like, how does it feel to be part of the MCU? You mentioned like you are a fan of this stuff. So what’s that side of it been like being in the room and shaping like? She’s like an iconic character. Like, we forget I love the MCU began with like what were essentially BCD level characters because of licensing. She-Hulk was up there above pretty much most of the characters that we started the MCU with. So how does it feel to be part of the MCU, but also be bring in this like such an iconic character to life?


Cody Ziglar Dude,  this was the endgame. Like the endgame was getting the MCU job. Like that would be like really my first my first big staffing job was kind of crazy. Again, I cannot praise Gao enough for putting me on and giving me my first shot. Like the room was fantastic, you know, majority women, majority black women, which is like it’s rare in Hollywood and like really letting letting me flag my freak fly my freak flag as high as I possibly could. She’s already told the story. So, like, it’s not a spoiler now, but like there was one day they were trying to we were talking about Daredevil in the room, like, hey, like, how does this power work? Blah, blah, blah. Like what’s his vibe? And I just happened to have Mark Wade’s comic in my backpack, and I pulled out, you know, the scene where, like, he’s walking with Foggy.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Cody Ziglar It’s like the double spread. Like, you see his powers and stuff like this is how it works in, like, they all, like, stopped, and, like, you have to calm down. Like, you cannot be the guy.


Rosie Knight Please chill out.


Cody Ziglar Pulls out the literal comic book in the middle of a conversation. Like, we appreciate the enthusiasm, but you need to relax. So that was very much me every day being like I’m going like I made it like I’m I’m going to Disneyland every single day and hanging out with some of the funniest, most talented writers that.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Cody Ziglar That, that are in the game right now.


Rosie Knight That would definitely be me. Like I would have to be doing having my ultimate filter on because every single second I’d be like, Oh, like issue 236 like, oh, yeah, that character. Let’s make Jonah jumpers Gamora Easter Egg. Let’s get an Easter Egg.


Cody Ziglar Yeah I’m like, you know you’re reading the room and stuff and like, I really like one of my good friend that I really made in the room was, was Zeb. Zeb Wells was writing Amazing Spider-Man now, but like, you would be sitting next to me and like, during lunch breaks, I’d see, like, in the machine on the computer typing away. I’m like, what is that? Like, I’d see, like, a giant spread of, like, Ant-Man fighting, like three different giant bugs. And, like, what are you doing? He’s like, Oh, I’m writing comic books like this. The art that I get in for my next issue, and they’re like, Oh, right, you can do that. Like, this is how it works. Like, Yeah, man, do you want to go write comic books? I was like, duh. Like, I always say, like, that room also is what got me into, like, writing comics. Like, so I like, I Zeb saw me pull out a comic book. He’s like, All right, he’s one of my own. And like, he’s how he put me in contact with the Spider-Man office. Like, it really everything that I’ve been doing right now, I’ve got because Gao took a shot on me and put me in the place to make all these connections and make some really good friends.


Rosie Knight That is so rad and kind of talk, I guess. Well, we’ll jump in to making new friends because I feel like the MCU’s new BFFs are introduced in an episode four.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, yeah, yeah.


Rosie Knight But before we get to that, because they are the best part. Wong As a Madisynn, you will all be knowing Madisynn’s name very soon if you haven’t already. But the episode starts with a very funny Easter egg, the answer is, well, a very funny kind of joke. The answer to a lot of questions, you know, you know how this stuff is. I am. This is like basically most of my job is just working out. What’s this? What’s that? What does this relate to? Where did this come from? So there had been a lot of like a lot of people have been very excited because they’d seen something that they thought, said Johnny Blaze in the trailers leading into She-Hulk. I had noticed that it didn’t have enough to ask to be Johnny, so I tried to temper people’s expectations.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight But it is actually something that may be better than Johnny Blaze, which is Donny Blaze, the shoddy magician who somehow got his hands on a sheet on a sling ring. So could you talk a little bit about that and how fun it is because it just sets up this episode so brilliantly and just that that comedy that we know is really going to be at the forefront.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. So this was actually like this is so this was written by Melissa Hunter, one of the fantastic writer actress in her own right. And this was actually I think this might have been like the second script written in the room.


Rosie Knight Wow.


Cody Ziglar Was like, Melissa’s like, you know, one of the big things that that Gao was sort of like really into is like, you know, She-Hulk  should be LA based because, one, we live in L.A. and also like, MCU, everything takes place in New York. And it’s a joke to go like the West Coast Avengers, like you very rarely get to hang out in L.A. So like, yeah, let’s have fun with this. And like, you know, we really want to hit all the like some of the, like L.A. specifics, like Magic Castle, like that’s a that’s a thing that’s really known out here. Like it’s a very specific type of person that would be into that. It’s also a very specific type of person that, like, can’t even make it to the Magic Castle. Like, yeah, the junior leagues of Magic Castle. Sort of like, that’d be fun. And like, you know, the whole conceit of the show is that like, it’s a, it’s an episode or it’s a trial of the week or a thing of the week. So, like, it’s, it’s through and through a sitcom from up and up top to bottom in. Like, I can remember how we got into that to it, but we’re like, Yeah, be funny if like there’s like there’s got to be drop outs, right? That went to like the mystic school, the arts that like couldn’t cut it or like they flunked out like, you know.  We can’t imagine that Doctor Strange is like the only guy to, like, sort of, like, cause a commotion there. It’s like, yeah, well, if we got a guy that made it like two semesters in the Magic School got kicked out, and this is like, this is like his grip now is like working these things and like, that’s sort of like the conceit of the show, and that’s where it all came from. Like, once you get that in order, like when she hit the, the comedy engine in, you can just add in any funny thing you want to and like Melissa would do this really funny pitch in the room where she like Wanda should have like a like this like party girl that meets her like she should be like named Madisynn and like she would always do this joke that made in the episode. She’s like a name Madisynn with an eye and that of a Y, but not the one. You think she should do that? And, like, we would laugh so hard in the room and like, we were like she was like, Yeah, we got to put that in and like, she, she made it in there. It’s like all the funny stuff in the room is like, it’s just like basically taking all her toys in, like, a little sandbox and smashing in together, like, the best comedic effect.


Rosie Knight Yeah. So speaking of Madisynn, who I do love, and everyone will be saying it soon. Yeah. Madisynn with two ends and a Y, but not what you think it is and that she. So she is the unlucky guest of, you know, Donny Blaze, who opens this sling ring, makes Madisynn disappear. And you think that might be the last that you see of Madisynn? But lo and behold, Madisynn ends up on Wong’s couch where Wong is trying to watch The Sopranos in a very relatable.


Cody Ziglar Yes, we’ve all  been there.


Rosie Knight We’ve all and Madisynn is a is a perennial spoiler, which I love. She just can’t help. She’s excited. So could you talk a little bit about how fun it was to be in the room when kind of walking out that dynamic between Wong As and Madisynn Wong This kind of reluctant but also like very fucking funny, like Benedict is great, this kind of reluctant, cranky guy, but who like, he never tells Madisynn to leave like he wanted his best friend.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, yeah. But you get the sense that he likes, that he likes, he likes to have, like, a new friend around. But that was very much some of the fun. The fun of the game was like pitting out this guy that, you know, when Strange first came in to Kumar-Taj or whatever, he was like the he was like the new fresh guy and like, Wong was like the stick in the mud. Like, it’d be fun to, like, had that sort of those roles reversed. And also, like, it’s just like a classic comedic pairing. You put like this, like, sort of stick in the mud. That also doesn’t mind letting his hair down, like, you know, the big fun runner that sort of just popped up out of nowhere through this movie. Just like Wong does not like he’s not sticking around for, like, the big fight. You’re like, Oh, yeah, he’s he’s like, I’m out. Peace. Yo, yo, hey. No, this like, it’d be very funny if, like, someone plopped in where he couldn’t get away from her. Like, he’s always. Like, she’s always following him, and, like, you end up becoming begrudgingly best friends. And, like, that was just, like, just a fun comedic conceit that, like, you know, you get a bunch of whackos in a room, like, yeah, we got to see we got to beat this in the ground as much as we possibly can.


Rosie Knight Yeah. And you talked about, like, the kind of legal comedy aspect, which I feel like really comes like for episode one and two, you’re establishing it. But three and four, you really get to have that fun, like Boston Legal esque, like wacky trial of the week. So and this is I feel like really good comic book stuff because a lot of the stuff that She-Hulk actually serves in the comics or represents in the comics is like very boring. It’s like trademark law. It’s cease and desist. So this is perfect because Wong calls up Jen and he’s like, Look, I need to cease and desist Donny Blaze from using a sling ring, calling himself like a master of the magic arts. And that’s kind of the trial we get into. So could you talk a little bit about bringing that? Because that’s the most unique thing about She-Hulk is it’s very slice of life and ground level, even though it’s superhuman law.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. I mean, like firstly I give a shout out to the comics, like the Dan Slott run is like where a lot of that stuff came from and like Gao, that was really like her vision for the show and like it definitely didn’t hurt to have like an actual lawyer in the room, like a Barbara Curry or the supervising producer is like what she did practice law before she became a TV writer. So like whenever we would get to those scenes were like, All right, what do you like adults do with this stuff happen? You give them, like, real pertinent information, like, all right, now we can, like, make it make it funny, but like, yeah, you know, that’s the perfect that’s usually like the perfect formula for, like, a sitcom. Like, you know, you know, Cheers has the bar, like, Seinfield has like the the the cafe even, I guess Friends has like they’re like cafe they hang out with like, you know, the like sort of like story anchor engine for this is like the courtrooms. Like that’s what you come for like, like a little bit like the legal stuff. You get your jokes and then like you get to go and like follow the fun as opposed to like actual procedural where you would be in the room for like four or five acts for like really heavy stuff. And yeah, this isn’t funny anymore. Like we’re not, we don’t need to have the three jokes per page. Like we’re, we’re, we’re talking about defamation and all that stuff, you know.


Rosie Knight Yeah. And what was it kind of you talked a little bit about sandbox and I just feel like you’re talking about kind of the the breaking down of the show, breaking down an episode. What is it like to be able to just be like, oh, let’s introduce The Wrecking Crew? Oh, wait a minute. We’re continuing this law of Wong, always kind of getting away. And this is us introducing someone he can’t get away from. How fun is it to be able to kind of like delve into what is probably the most popular sandbox in the kind of cinematic world right now.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, obviously, I was speaking as a staff writer who was a super super into like the MCU for me was a dream. Like, it was cool. Like it was cool being like, you know, at one point we had like we had like three we have like two different whiteboards, one like the big board that had like the story stuff and the one like a flip when I would just have like characters or bits that we with that we would just like pitch like, hey, where this character showed up, like, what if we did this? Like just like a basically like a list of like blue sky ideas that we have for like episodes or like or like dumb cases or the week or whatever. And like we also had two of the execs were in the room, Marvel execs. So like whenever we’d be like, Hey, is this character available? We would just say them. And then like it was like the mint tats and like do like their eyes would roll the back of their head and then it come back down. Like, actually, this character’s being used in this. We can’t use it. Or like this character still being owned by like Sony, so we can’t use them like all that stuff. So like it was called is being like able to throw out like ideas and like or like characters and like they’d be like, yes, yes, no, no, yes, yes. Like it was like it was like a really it felt like I was like doing like trip, like comic book nerd trivia. Like what obscure character can I find that hasn’t been scooped up by somewhere else that we could use? And like, it was, it was just so fun, like, just being, like, yell out, like, different yelling out like different communicators, like a group of, like, nine other adults that are getting paid to do this room.


Rosie Knight The dream.


Cody Ziglar Couldn’t ask for a better job.


Rosie Knight The dream.


Rosie Knight And when it comes to like obviously you get there, you break it down and you see Melissa’s great pitches. What was it like to then see Patty Guggenheim, who plays Madisynn, come and bring that character to life in just like the most perfect way?


Cody Ziglar So like, yes, like we read the script in in the room and then like we, we left in there like, you know, the show shoots. Like, literally the first time I saw it was like basically in the theater, like that was like, like I had seen some, like, rough, some dailies and stuff that, you know, but like I did get to see like the actual performance, but like you’re watching and you like, Oh, fuck, Patty is so good. I mean, if you don’t know, like, she’s a fantastic comedic performer. She just a bunch of growling stuff out here. But after she was in the show Florida Girls.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Cody Ziglar Which I think ran for like two or three seasons, but like, she was fantastic on that. Like, she was great. Like, I remember, I think we ran into I think I ran into her at like the after party and we were just like, Oh my God, like you. Not only did you, like, kill it, but like you elevated the material, like you made it Madisynn. Like, I cannot picture anyone else being Madisynn besides maybe Melissa because she’s in the room, but like. Like just she was so good and she was so fun. And, like, it’s one of those things where, like, you want to just like, now I just wanna, like, watch the whole series of, like, Wong versus Madisynn. Yeah, I just want to watch that for, like, for like six issue or six episodes or whatever next with they get on to.


Rosie Knight You know, completely. And also like what I love about it is it’s like, Patty, I hope you’re prepared because like that has a kind of Jimmy Woo style. Like you feel like there’s going to be a character who’s going to be coming back. Actually, when I spoke when I spoke to Jessica at the press junket, she’d said, like, her dream was to do like a Wong, as in Madisynn, like Halloween special. Which I’m just like.


Cody Ziglar That would be so fun.


Rosie Knight How good would that be? What would like if just playing? Because obviously this is this is absolutely playing. No, Zig is not revealing anything. But like in your dream of the sandbox, in everything, what would you like to do with Madisynn? Like if you could do anything and throw out any wild character.


Cody Ziglar You know what you want to say? I want to see Madisynn on vacation with Wong. Like, I want to see them on, like, a cruise ship. And I was like, like, there’s a cruise ship. Maybe there’s like, you know, Dazzler is like the on board, like a guest.


Rosie Knight Yeah, yeah, yeah.


Cody Ziglar Whatever. And like, there’s no real high stakes is just them on a cruise, like being like, like a begrudging couple for like, you know, 30 minutes or however long the actual thing is. Or like, I want to see them. Like, I want to see like they run out like shrimp cocktails, like Wong does his gang signs and like, pops more down to like the mirror dimension. Like, I just want to see them existing in, like, a confined space on the ship for, like, an episode. Yeah, that’s all that I want to see.


Rosie Knight That sounds perfect. And also we would definitely we know Wong Wong just loves karaoke, so I could definitely see good performances. Maybe some dance classics.


Cody Ziglar You know what? Hip, hip. The hypno hustler breaks in the whiskey face to steal so it becomes a four way fight between Wong’s Dazzler versus Hypno Hustler.


Rosie Knight That sounds absolutely brilliant. I’m like, Feighe, let’s screen write it like, I would love to watch. You could do so much fun with that as well with the cruise ship because like, you know, they do these like comic book cruise ships by like cartoonists and comic book creators.


Cody Ziglar Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


Rosie Knight You could have it where there’s like they just happened to be on one where it’s loads of like x superheroes.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight Like minor level superheroes. So you got people doing the signings and everything that could be so fun. Wong was like this is the wrong cruise. He does not want to be on that cruise.


Cody Ziglar Wonkers. Have some fun.


Rosie Knight Yeah. Come on Wongers, we got to go watch. You know, Endgame. Do you know what happens at the end? It’s just such a delightfully fun episode.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight And do you have like a when you got to sit there in the, sit there at the El Capitan at Disney’s theatre and watch them at the premiere, did you have like a favorite moment or something that kind of surprised you from any of the first episodes?


Cody Ziglar Yes. So like, seeing the the Meg the Stallion tag what was was so fucking cool because like, you know, we had, we had like a different tag in the original writers room and I think that’s something that Gao added later. But like she told, I remember she was telling me about like, yeah, we got, we got Meg the Stallion. I like don’t tell me anything else. I just get away with it and like, and like seeing it like, actually happen, like seeing the crowd, like, lose their mind. And that was so, so fun and so, like, cool. Like, like, oh, yeah. The jokes are like, landing. And like, it’s, it’s one of those things where, like, like when we, when we like left the screening were like, oh, man, that’s the one that’s going to like break Twitter for like a week. This score is going to be impossible for like a full seven days. Like you just can see nothing but that gif.


Rosie Knight Yep.


Cody Ziglar Time after time.


Rosie Knight And it was true. And now everyone, now that we know that she can twek and we’ve seen her do the Hulk clap now we need to see those powers put together and she would definitely be able to beat Thanos. We all know that.


Cody Ziglar Too much power, you got  to seperate it.


Rosie Knight Too much power.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight And kind of like another thing that I just think is so wonderful about this show that you’ve kind of touched on with yours and Zeb’s roles, but I think it comes in on every level. Like when I was speaking to to Jessica and Kat about like building in the comic book aspects.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight It’s so important. But to do it from like Jen’s perspective, which I love, kind of that we saw with The Wrecking Crew, how much kind of intention, I’m guessing by having Zeb and you there is a lot. But how intentionally did it feel when you were in that room, kind of, that you were purposefully trying to make this feel like a comic book? Because it feels like single issues. It feels like that story of the week. It feels like, yeah, you get something bigger if you watch it, but you could watch any of them and have fun.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, I mean, I definitely like obviously we had a fantastic head writer showrunner, which was Jessie like I’m sure she told you her pedigree, but like she worked in comics since she’s like 16. Like she, she’s a huge, huge comic fan, particularly just like, not just promote stuff like the indie stuff like she loves love and rockets. Like she’s a huge fan. Also, like one of the other writers, Jackie Gael, she wrote, her and her sister wrote the third episode with Megan Thee Stallion. Like, she was also a huge comic book nerd. So like, you have like, you know, you have it coming down from the top with Jessica and then Zeb, and then me and Jackie and like all the other people in the room, it was just like it was great. Like, yeah, like you’re saying, like you have whole days of like you’re just talking about like what characters are would be fun to see interact with like Jen and like.


Rosie Knight Mm hmm.


Cody Ziglar The idea is that like, you know, Jessica, you know, she was like she had written, she has written so much television like she has written true like so she, like she has fully put in her 10000 hours, 15 times over. So like, she’s like very much like her edict was like, we want it to feel like a TV show, like a classic sitcom. We’re like, yeah, there’s like a little bit of a through line, but the ideas are like, Yeah, you could just pop up in any episode. Like, Oh, cool, this is what’s happening this week. And like, it’s been really cool seeing that like transition to like the final in of it. But like, yeah, yeah. Like we would have full full, full week weeks of blue sky and we just talk about like the fun comic book stuff that would make us like super happy and super nerdy. And then like after we would get done yelling about it, they’re like, All right, we have do actual work now. We can’t keep talking about it.


Rosie Knight Real TV stuff, you know. That makes so much sense, though, that that was Jessica’s intention about the TV thing, because I’ve spoken to so many people, comic book people, not comic, but people like who are just like this feels like it could be running on ABC for nine seasons. Yeah, like it feels like a classic TV sitcom. Did you go back and kind of like dig into anything like Boston Legal or Ally McBeal, like personally to kind of get the vibe of of what you guys were going for.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. So before we started, Gao sent out a like, like the the Bible for like the show and then like, hey, you should watch these series because this is really what like it’s completely we’re going to be grabbing a lot of stuff from this, but like, you know, Fleabag was on to the big one for like the fourth wall breaking because it was like such a fun way of, like, doing it and like, it played into, like, Fleabag’s character for like up for the arc. And like, I mean, I can yell about Fleabag forever. I won’t do that. But like Fleabag.


Rosie Knight No, you can see the Fleabag influence on the show.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight For sure. Even the way that something that I think is really cool that the show kind of learns from Fleabag is like the way that the fourth wall breaks can impact other things going on, which isn’t so much something you can explore as well in comics but in TV. And I love that first introduction of Jen properly breaking the wall where she has no idea what’s going on behind her, and at the end she just agrees to something and she’s like, Yeah, so that’s really cool. Yeah, yeah. And she’s like, I’ll be anxious about that for months. Like, wondering what I just said.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, what did I agree to? So Fleabag, Better Call Saul because they’re like, Yes, it’s a drama, but like, you know, those shows are so funny. Like they, I mean, they could very easily if they, if you cut them down to 22 minutes, they could just be straight up comedies if they want too. And coincidentally, the OJ Simpson was it was it.


Rosie Knight Oh, the Ryan Murphy Fox American Crime Story. Yeah.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. A lot of it dealing with like the character’s name but like a lot of the throughout the show is like dealing with like this lady’s persona inside the court and like how the media portrays her outside of the court system. And like, that’s, you know, obviously, like that’s something that’s been seeded and she talks with like those like the three big things are like we really we’re really influenced or at least Gao told us to like to watch, to get prepared for like the mindset that we were going to come in for the room.


Rosie Knight That’s really cool and it’s nice to kind of all be on the same page. When you’re looking for influences, obviously you’re going to bring in your own things that you love and your own style is the joy of writer’s room. But yeah, that’s really cool. And so something else I think is kind of must have been wild about this show is a lot of the MCU shows so far have been pretty contained, even though they’ve they’ve included massive characters, obviously, and we’ve seen huge Avengers, all different kinds of people that we’ve seen new introductions. She-Hulk seems like it would be this, like you said, sitcom focused, interior funny. But within the first episode you’re introducing Bruce Banner. You’re bringing in like big, heavy original Infinity Saga players. Then, you’re bringing in Wong. So it’s like, no, you’re also Emil Blonsky. So you’re really getting to delve into The Incredible Hulk, which often gets kind of forgotten in the in the history of the MCU. What was that like? Because it’s a whole different level than just introducing a new character in kind of a spinoff show is, oh, by the way, you’re also going to have to make Bruce and you’re going to tease things about Bruce Banner that could be game changing for the whole MCU, you know?


Cody Ziglar Yeah, I remember reading the the pilot or the pilot of the pitch doc that Gao had put together. But I remember seeing, like, you know, this is what the Hulk is doing and this is how Emile goes into it. And then like in the room when they were like breaking the episode, I’m like, Oh shit, the Hulk is going to be in like our TV show. Like, he’s crazy. I guess, like, like, like Hulk is going to be in a spaceship in our TV show, that’s. That’s insane. I can’t make this, like, an actual thing that’s going to happen. So, like, it was, it was wild be like, oh, yeah, because that’s what when I think moments where I’m like, Oh, yeah, I guess I forget that this is like a Marvel TV show. Like, if you want to have the Hulk period a thing you can just ask. They’d be like, Yeah, Ruffalo would love to do more Hulk stuff. Like, we would get it in like that or like, you know, when you’re like, Yeah, you guys can you can use Matt Murdock. I was like we get to use Matt, are you wait, what this crazy like really this is the real thing.


Rosie Knight Yeah yeah. That’s the wild one.


Cody Ziglar Like it was so crazy. Like, it was just, again, so surreal to be like, oh, man. Like, we’re going to have the Hulk and She-Hulk talk to each other. And like, that’s such a weird, like as a, like in your nerd brain you’re like, oh, wow, this is like a real thing. This how it happens. Like, they just get a bunch of people in a room and they’re excited about the thing, and they, they ask someone and they’re like, Yeah, you can do that. And then like soon and then like three years later, Mark Ruffalo is like drinking daiquiris on a beach with his cousin Jen. Like, it’s such a it’s so weird. They would be so much, like, much harder to connect those dots.


Mm hmm.


A to, A to C. But it’s like, yeah, if you ask it, it’s available. Like, you can make it happen, which is, like, crazy.


Rosie Knight Yeah, I guess in that way, it kind of. And you will have experienced this now, because now you’re also like a comic writer and a brilliant spider punk would just make then like. It kind of. It’s so similar to how comics are made because. Yeah. Comics like somebody will have had a really cool idea that maybe they didn’t think. They just kind of offhandedly put into a comic book 20 years ago and then someone else will pick it up 20 years later and be like, Well, actually, what if it was this? So I love to hear that it’s very similar to that, kind of like picking up and expanding on what other great people have done before you.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s funny that you I even think about that. But yeah, that it’s very much like how a lot of the characters came from spider properties that they like. I mean, obviously I’m a huge Taskmaster fan in general.


Rosie Knight Of course.


Cody Ziglar I loved The Misfits, but like they were like, you know, we had Captain Anarchy and like he was only in like a couple of like couple of shorts. And I was like, Yeah, this is a cool character like, but I also want my team to be like all people of color. So like, yeah, let’s just make him look native and change his last name from Morgantown to Morgan, dude like you could do that and yeah, yeah, great. Do it like, yeah, that’s a that’s the whole purpose. Like, that’s the whole idea. Like even with I can’t say it, but like I thing I’m writing now. Like there’s a character that I’m introducing in the hope. I hope is that like further down the line, people that are from that culture can like take that like expand on like I’m really just like putting like a litttle seed that hopefully someone else can take and make it bigger and better and ideas that like I would never even possibly think of.


Rosie Knight I love that so much. And that’s yeah, that’s the joy. It’s the, it’s the ultimate continuous collaboration. And I think that it can be easy to imagine that that wouldn’t be the case in like a huge multi-million dollar Billion dollar franchise. But I love that these shows especially are giving creatives that space to pick up on those little moments, to have someone in the room who says, Hey, what about The Wrecking Crew. And someone.


Cody Ziglar How crazy is that like that Carol Danvers just shows up at the last episode of, like, Miss Marvel. Like, how cool is that?


Rosie Knight Oh, my God.


Rosie Knight I literally just died. And also, like, even that’s a great example of something I really love about these shows that I think is what’s so unprecedented about them. Just in general, in any space, not even just the superhero space. We’ve rarely seen TV shows and movies that are so interconnected and actually have such a huge impact. So Captain Marvel turning up there was so good and it was so comics. I had to explain to so many different people what happened. I was like, No, Ms.. Marvel is not shapeshifting. It’s all about these things called the Naga bands. Don’t get me started on Rick Jones like it became this whole thing. But and also like Bisha and you know, Sana and everyone getting to introduce mutation and getting to have that.


Cody Ziglar Right.


Rosie Knight The theme play like. Yeah, that is so exciting. And how is that aspect of this been? Not just being able to play with the sandbox of the past and these characters you love and kind of get to be in this Disneyland, like you said every day. But how does it feel to imagine the things that you’re reading and how in five years you could be sitting in a theater after you’ve been writing something else won all your Emmys. Now you’re just chillin and you see something that you established in this show. What’s that kind of feel like?


Cody Ziglar Dude, it’s it’s so weird. So, like, when I was in, I went to Savannah College of Art Design for my grad, my grad degree in film, and I met this dude there who was from North Carolin,. Like me. His name is Andy Seravante, like we were the guys that were always watching like we’re going to see Guardian of the galaxy, we’re going to go see Ant-Man. Like we were just like huge, like Marvel fans. Like I remember like we were roommates and like he had like one of those, like Iron Man hot toys in his room. Like, we were broke as fuck, but he decided to save his money and buy one of those like these were like those are like what we did so like it was so cool going to see those then like, you know, flash, fast forward like ten years like we’re on set together. Like I was on set and like Andy was like working on the show. Like he works on a bunch of, like the Marvel shows because he’s in Atlanta and like, it was so cool. Like, just sitting there, like, we’re sitting there like, just like talking to like we see, like, you know, Gao is like talking to Tatiana about notes or whatever. And we were like, This is crazy. Like, this is surreal.


Rosie Knight You did it.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, we did it. Like we went from being fans, like working on the thing and like we, like, I remember like we each took a picture of like the first time the credits roll, like send it to one another is so, so cool. But like, yeah, so wild be like, oh yeah, maybe a thing that I write will be referenced are like, would it be cool if like you see She-Hulk pop up like Avengers seven or whatever?


Rosie Knight Oh, you know, it’s going to happen. I’m like, I know you can’t say anything because we don’t want people to think you’re confirming things, but let’s be real. I’ve had so many people message me and be like, Does this mean A-force is happening? If She-Hulk has this mean it was. I think the the people are still so excited about the idea of different people getting to lead teams. And I don’t know if it needs to be as binary as it has had to be in comics before. But like you said, like teams of people of color teams that are predominantly led by women, like that’s the stuff that people want to see and in a really brilliant way. She-Hulk introduces that not just because she was the original leader of A-force, which was the first all female Avengers team, though not by name of the title, but they are the Avengers in the comics. But also because the show is just mad inclusive. Because that’s just what we care about and what people like Jessica care about. It’s really cool to hear you say. I mean, I haven’t gotten to speak to Jessica a lot, but it’s very cool to say that she loves Love and Rockets because that’s like my jam. And so it’s I have Love and Rockets Tattoos.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. Yeah.


Rosie Knight So it’s like. I love that we’re at a place now where our peers are people who grew up with this stuff and they don’t just love one type of comic. They don’t it’s not like, Oh, do you love Marvel and DC? It’s like you love both, but you also love Love and Rockets or you love Image. Your your what’s your special topic? Is it the founding of Image Comics? Is it the history or saga? Is it like, Oh yeah, yeah, you know, Hellboy. I love that. Yeah, that’s the space where in now where? Like this thing that people used to tell us, oh, please stop talking about that. Or like, just like, go talk to your friends. And like, now everyone’s coming to us and they’re like, So what does this mean? Like, which comic should I read? It’s kind of a joy.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. I mean, she put me into a bunch of great stuff like Superman, Lemon Rockets, Dawkins or Dork.


Rosie Knight Oh, yeah.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. Like she. Like. Like I said, like she spent years working at a comic shop and, like, that’s back before, like, you know, you had, like, social media. So, like, you would have to go to, like, cons to meet other indie comics, indie providers or whatever, or be like, Oh, we don’t have this. But like there’s a shop, two towns over there, that’s where you go to find like the weird, cool indie stuff. Go there, like, oh cool, I’ll do that. So like, it was just dope. And also like, you know, you know, you’d be on your lunch breaks like the Marvel Studios office is like you walk in and there’s like all of Iron Man’s first, like three suits.


Rosie Knight Of course.


Cody Ziglar Crazy as fuck. Like you walk around, they just have props and stuff, but like in the kitchen area, they just have like their wall of comics. It was just like basically every trade paperback you could ever possibly want to read. And like, you know, sometimes like you’d be on your lunch break, like, oh, you know what? I haven’t read like Secret Wars. They just read that. Or like, man, you know what I always wanted to see? Like, what? What? You know, KAMALA’S first run was like, I haven’t read that in a while, so, like, you go back and read that. So, like, it really is. It’s like being like, oh, man, like these people that, like, made comic books, they got paid absolutely garbage and still get paid garbage, but like, it’s cool being like, oh yeah, like this is honestly, like, this built this empire, these writers and artists and editors and editors and all all people that made this stuff, like, built this empire just by, like, working together and making really cool, cool pop art. Like that’s yeah, it’s like, you know, you what you did, you don’t think about it, you know, it’s just like, so cool seeing that, like, that’s, that’s where, like, art can lead to.


Rosie Knight Yeah, it’s pretty amazing. I remember the first time when I really started to realize that the two worlds like, do cross-pollinate. They did this book. It was like a, it was a re vamped version of an old Marvel title, Strange Tales, which is obviously that’s like a very premiere title. But they did a short anthology collection version of it where each story was like a weird story by an indie cartoonist. So you have Gilbert Hernandez drawing Scarlet Witch, and it’s like Gilbert, and he’s drawing like Wanda, and they’re on like a beach party.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, yeah, yeah


Rosie Knight And I was just like, Oh, I was like, these are not two separate things. Like everybody who makes these their nanas burrows make comics because they love these things. Yes. And sometimes Marvel will come to them and be like, hey, what you say? And I mean, Gilbert did a even a Wonder Woman comic. So it’s so cool, like you said. And I love that even in this huge Hollywood space and in a studio, which is so much outside of what publishing is doing, it’s really lovely to know that they have those books. And even if, like you said, you know, we have many dreams about how people would get compensated.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight In an ideal world, but we it’s nice to know that they have them, that they’re not trying to make that separation. But we also worry about, you know, we always want to remember like these other stories that influence when it when it came to She-Hulk actually because you mentioned the Dan Slott run, which we’ve talked about more on the show and I’ve written extensively about were there any other comics that you revisited, She-Hulk or otherwise that really like got you into the zone of the show.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, I reread Mark’s Daredevil one because I’ve been meaning to read it for a while because I was a huge fan of the show and I was like, Man, you know, I haven’t really read much Daredevil outside of like Frank Miller’s run. And I’m saying, Oh, it’s like a modern take. And like, I remember buying like the trade paperback, like the first three issues or whatever, or three copies of that. And like reading, I’d be like, Man, Daredevil fucking rocks. Like, I forgot how fucking cool Daredevil is and like, you know, the seminal Hawkeye one. Like, I reread Hawkeye because I haven’t read it since it first came out. And like, that book is so fucking good.


Rosie Knight Like, unbelievable. Like no Fraction and Aja are an unstoppable team. Yes. And you just see that absolute static autistic story narrative influence that it had on the show and it had on those two characters is unbelievable. Yeah. And that Mark Waid run is so good. And then Paulo Manuel Rivera’s art is like, unreal. Did you this is just me giving you. I’m not quizzing you. I’m just giving your recommendation. Did you ever read the Charles Soldad Devil run?


Cody Ziglar No, I did not. I heard it was good though


Rosie Knight You should read it because Charles, he did a brilliant She-Hulk run and a brilliant Daredevil run. In my opinion, the best of both. Because he was a lawyer.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight So he brings that to the vibes, the Charles Saul run one to me I feel like spiritually that She-Hulk book is very in line with what you guys were doing. So definitely. And the art in there is, like, unreal as well. Like, it’s just.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


We’re blessed. There’s so many brilliant artists. I mean, you know, because you’re getting art back with Spider-Man in it, you know?


Cody Ziglar So there’s like, Justin Mason is such a phenomenal artist. It’s crazy that Spider published his first book, his first Marvel book. Like, I cannot wait until he’s like drawing everything on the planet. Like, he’s such a cool dude.


Rosie Knight His art is so fucking good. Like, it blows my mind. When, you know, I’m a big fan of that book, but getting to see those pages and those characters and the stuff you guys did is just it’s so exciting. We’re in a new era of.


Cody Ziglar Issue five comes out this month, and I think there’s a particular like section of like art that he does that I think you’re going to fucking lose your mind over.


Rosie Knight I’m is so excited about. I mean as a writer, the best thing in the world is like getting that art back, you know?


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight From the artist. So what was it? You know, we kind of touched on it, but how does that feeling translate? Like, how does it compare to kind of getting to see a rough cut of something you wrote come to life for the first time?


Cody Ziglar It’s it’s I mean, this is the word of the day is it’s surreal.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Cody Ziglar It’s because like, you know, you make your regular rinky dink stuff like, oh yeah, I’ve made some short films, like, I did this, but like.


Rosie Knight I made a zine.


Cody Ziglar Yeah, I made a zine, but, like, being like, oh, like Justin Simmons in, like, these fantastic designs. You’re like, the first time I saw, like, his taskmaster, I was like. So he’s like. Yeah. I was like, yeah. You know, I’m thinking maybe we could make him look like the Phoenix, like, say less. And then he came back with that. I think this is so cool. Or like his Kamala designs, like he, she has like the embedded in on like brass knuckles. Like that was just it’s just so cool. Like, it’s so cool and like, it’s so it’s been so fun. Like, personally for me, like, I think they say the same thing too, but like, it’s the most fun we’ve ever had. Like, writing anything with like the team is so great day the editors great Justin Jason is great. Justin that the colorist is fantastic like the lettering is.


Rosie Knight The lettering is just unbelievable like that. I remember I messaged you and I was like, who is the letterer? And you know, it’s Travis. And I was like, Oh my God. Like the best. I haven’t seen a book in a long time from a big to publisher where the lettering feels so much a part. It’s that like if you’re a kid watching Batman 66, like the Half, it just feels like part of the story. Yeah, it’s such a joy. I’m. I’m so. And I’m excited that, you know, you can’t walk by, but I’m excited that you’re still writing more comics because to me, I was like, Spider Punk feels like that’s going to be the ongoing, you know, that’s the classic.


Cody Ziglar I would love nothing more, dude.


Rosie Knight Fingers crossed, because we know how it is. The way the big two works now is they they announce a lot of miniseries and people get super stoked for them and they love them. And occasionally we get lucky enough that those might become ongoings or get continued. So I’m crossing my fingers because Spider-Punk sells out in my shop.


Cody Ziglar I would love nothing more.


Rosie Knight You guys are such a stellar team. So yeah, that’s really that’s really exciting. It reminds me a lot of like when I used to also work in a comic book shop.


Cody Ziglar No


Rosie Knight And so yeah, I know. Shocking. Can you believe it? Does. She doesn’t know anything about it and why would she do that? But I was there just post like the Marvel now relaunch that included Miss Marvel Kamala Contest Appearance, The Young Avengers by Jamie McCorvey and Karen Gillan, one of my favorite comics of all time. Same with this Marvel. I feel like now with things like Spider Punk with Hellions. I feel like we’re in another exciting space like that again, where we’re getting to see new iterations of classic characters, where we’re getting to see things that feel like they’re going to become formative.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight And impactful.


Cody Ziglar Yeah.


Rosie Knight Going forward.


Cody Ziglar Yeah. That’s the way I mean, I’ve thought about this for you both on the show and on the show, but that’s how I felt with like Kelly Thompson’s Black Widow. Like, Oh, yeah, I’m like, like, oh, this is like what Hawkeye did for Hawkeye. This is what Black this is what Kelly’s Black Widow is going to do for Black Widow. It’s such a fun, exciting, different book. It’s like, I cannot wait for this new era of, like, writers to get in and artists to get into, like, make these, like, new, new generation of comic books.


Rosie Knight Yeah, it’s really cool. And you are that for the MCU now, which is amazing.


Cody Ziglar It’s how I weasled my way in. You didn’t see it coming.


Rosie Knight You did it. You did the dream and you just talked about stuff you loved. You were funny as fuck, which you are. And Jessica was like, Oh, this is going to be good for us. And it was because the show is so great.


Rosie Knight Okay, I get to watch about this all day, but before we go, thank you so much for coming because this is a joy and it will not be the last time Zig is here to talk about She-Hulk.


Cody Ziglar Oh, yes, yes.


Rosie Knight Yeah. So with that said, what can you kind of tease that’s going to be exciting about the rest of the season? You don’t have to tease anything that you’re going to get in trouble about, but is there like stuff that you’re stoked for people to see? Like, I is, they’re like, what the fuck moment that you can’t wait?


Cody Ziglar Yes, there’s a yes. There’s a very fun big what the fuck moment that I will say nothing else I have. Very excited about it. I think people are going to love it. I think you in particular are going to love it. It’s very fun. It’s from the twisted mind of Jessica Gao, is all I can say. It’s great. It’s really, really fucking fun. It’s it’s really cool. And like, even the second half of the season is gets somehow even better and funnier. It’s just. I’m obviously I’m biased, but the calls come from inside the house, but like, cause there’s some really fun shit towards the end of the end of the season.


Rosie Knight Yeah, well, I can’t wait. And I’m so. I’m so happy for you because you’re just so great and the show is so great. And I love to be able to see people getting the show and all the funny, sexy She-Hulk memes that we get to send each other.


Cody Ziglar Oh yes. Our group chats are so diabolic at this point. It’s just the weirder the post we all send them direct to Gao. It’s very fun.


Rosie Knight So yeah, this was wonderful. Thank you so much and can’t wait to see your episode, which is coming up in the second half of the season.


Cody Ziglar Yes.


Rosie Knight A big thank you to Jason for joining us from vacation to dig deep into House of the Dragon. We know you love your maester, so we had to be here to talk about it. And of course, thank you to Cody Ziglarr, who we absolutely love. As Cody is not here, I will plug things for him. Go follow Cody. He’s great. Cody is an incredible writer. Cody was nominated for Robot Chicken, recently nominated for an Emmy. Cody is writing She-Hulk and Cody is going to be back talking more about She-Hulk. I am as always, at Rosie Marks with an X on Instagram and Letterboxd. You can also hear me here sometimes introducing the podcast now, but most of the time just talking about comics and very exciting news. The most, you know, X Ray Vision has a new home to Takeline on YouTube and Twitter channels are now dedicated to all things XRV so go check out XRVPod for on Twitter and X-Ray Vision on YouTube. Plus, our really, really lovely X-ray Vision Discord, which I just cannot overhype as being such a cool show space. Me and Jason in there a lot. We talk about movies, TV, games, sports. It’s just generally great. So also, if you heard Ask the Maester today and you were like, Wow, I have a question that you need Jason to answer, which honestly is me. Every time when I watch House of the Dragon, you can send an email to And remember, we love five star reviews. Five star reviews are the best five star reviews. A wonderful five star reviews make it easier for other people to find us. And if you write a five star review that we really love, then we might read out on the air like this. Absolutely delightful review the M.C. Work Left. I love this show. X-ray Vision is effervescent, encyclopedic, informed and compassionate Rosie Knight and Jason Concepcion unabashed in sharing that absolute joy for comics, fantasy and science fiction and pop culture. As both fans and creators, the added bonus is that they are able to extend the conversation into the real life realms of business and politics that drive the creation, distribution and consumption of it all. My only gripe is the seeming preference of Star Wars over Star Trek four. That’s a me problem. Look, we thank you. First of all, this is the best review. I love to hear this review. This is exactly the kind of thing that we love and that we try and do every day. All of us are amazing. Team Chris, Saul, Delon, Vacilis, this is like what we’re always trying to do. Jason Of course, but also we know that the Star Trek is missing. People have said it. We have Star Trek experts in our field. You may hear about Star Trek sooner rather than they are also Star Trek school. So yeah, sorry about that, but thank you for the good review.


Jason Concepcion X-ray vision is a Crooked Media production. The show is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rubin. The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy Girard. Our editing and sound design inspired Vasilis Fotopoulos, Delon Villanueva and Matt DeGroot provide video production support. Alex Reliford handles social media. Thank you Brian Vasquez for our theme Music. See you next time. Bye bye.